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Old 03-21-2005   #1
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Bush signs Schiavo law




(BBC) US President George W Bush has signed a law designed to force doctors to keep a severely brain-damaged woman alive.
The legislation was passed by both houses of Congress after an impassioned debate and approved by the president in the early hours of Monday.

It calls for a federal court to review the case of Terri Schiavo, who has been in a vegetative state for 15 years.

Congress intervened after a Florida judge allowed her feeding tube to be removed at her husband's request.

Mrs Schiavo is expected to die within two weeks unless the Florida ruling, made on Friday, is overturned and the tube reinserted.
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Old 03-21-2005   #2
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Re: Bush signs Schiavo law

it's easy for him to say.

he's not the one lying there.

...

i've said it before, and i'll say it again:

this woman has had to live through more pain in the last fifteen years than any one person should - she is incapable of doing anything for herself, her husband has fallen in love with and had children with another woman, and her parents are arguing with him over whether or not to feed her.

and yet she's in a vegetative state - she has no capacity for thought of feeling. she's been that way for fifteen years.

the fact that perhaps she can think, that perhaps she can feel is not an argument for keeping her alive.

it's an argument for saving her from the torture she's already had to live through.
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Old 03-21-2005   #3
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Re: Bush signs Schiavo law

I remember when the republican party actually advocated staying out of people's private lives. They were the ones that insisted on pushing this law through by the way. Her husband maintains it was her wish not to live like that, so why do people want to go against her wishes and let her lay in bed for 15 years?
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Old 03-21-2005   #4
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Re: Bush signs Schiavo law

her husband is an intersting figure in this whole situation.

it isn't a case of him wanting her dead so that he can re-marry: if that was the case, he could just divorce her.

which forces you to think: does he really care about this woman? is that why he's staying with her, and is that wy he's advocating for what hethinks is best for her?

but you have to wonder - if he really thinks he knows best: what does he think he's doing having kids with another women without first divorcing his wife?

of course you have to remmbr that in divorcing her, he then gives up any rights he has as a husband to make dcisions on her future and well-being.

which leads me to deduce that in involves the parents - the husband clearly does not want them having control over the future of their daughter [and we begin to think to ouselves: why?].

so what we find here is that we actually have a battle between parents and son-in-law being fought out,and in themiddle is a woman who either doesn't know what's going on, or can't do anything about it.

as far as i can see, they're all as bad as eachother.
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Old 03-21-2005   #5
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Re: Bush signs Schiavo law

i would have to side with the parents. it is obvious they both have their own agendas but i think the husband's is vendictive. it's obvious that he is hanging on to fight the parents and one could argue that he loves her enough to let her go.....but not enough to end his relationship to her before starting another.
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Old 03-21-2005   #6
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Re: Bush signs Schiavo law

To be honest, my opinion is that the parents have a right to keep their kid alive--fruitless though the efforts will be to have some 'miracle' occur. The husband has small children with another woman....he should just divorce Terry and get it done. But this is my opinion....I don't think Congress should intervene. There are more things to worry about than some woman in Florida.

It reminds me of the Elian Gonzalez case. All that hoopla over a little kid! No one cares!
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Old 03-21-2005   #7
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Re: Bush signs Schiavo law

i've just read that the husband actually made a lot of money off a court case a few years ago where he argued he would 'stay' by her side, and managed to get them to give him 50 years worth of medical treatment in cash.

if she dies, he will automatically get that money.

if he divorces her, he loses out on it.

...

but while his intentions are less than admirable, is that a good enough reason to perpetuate the torture of another human?

surely it would make more sense to simply take this to the supreme court [as is being done] and let them work it out there. if the judges have any sense, they will not only prevent the forced endurance of a life of suffering, but make sure that the money that was meant to go towards her treatment finds another good cause, instead of ending up in the husband's coffers.
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Old 03-21-2005   #8
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Re: Bush signs Schiavo law

I'd have to side with the parents and bush on this one. If she wasn't responsive to anything, I'd side other wise. She does respond to her parents and other people (I think she has a the same brain capablilties of a 9? month old). I heard she can swollow but apparently one court ruling denied the parents from feeding her without the tube and it can't be reversed.
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Old 03-21-2005   #9
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Re: Bush signs Schiavo law

if you were lying there, unable to move, talk, go to the bathroom, feed yourself, do anything whatsoever - but you could see the world carrying on around you...

if you were living a life that pretty much equates to being tied down and stopped from making your own choices, or carrying out any sort of decision or action whatsoever...

if the life you were living was no better than being behind bars with nothing to do but sit and stare between them for as long as you are still breathing...

are you sure you'd choose to make that last forever?
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Old 03-21-2005   #10
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Re: Bush signs Schiavo law

Quote:
Originally Said by Kali
if you were lying there, unable to move, talk, go to the bathroom, feed yourself, do anything whatsoever - but you could see the world carrying on around you...

if you were living a life that pretty much equates to being tied down and stopped from making your own choices, or carrying out any sort of decision or action whatsoever...

if the life you were living was no better than being behind bars with nothing to do but sit and stare between them for as long as you are still breathing...

are you sure you'd choose to make that last forever?
These are NOT the questions at hand. The questions are:
Would you let your DAUGHTER go through it? I don't think they would let her live if she wasn't responsive.

Quote:
Her family, and medical experts who support their position, claim that she smiles, laughs, cries, moves, and makes child-like attempts at speech. Sometimes she has been reported to say "Mom" or "Dad" or "yeah" when her parents ask her a question. When they kiss her, they claim she looks at them and sometimes "puckers up" her lips. They cite the testimony and affidavits of 33 physicians and therapists (including 15 neurologists), who, after reviewing video segments provided by her parents, believe that Ms. Schiavo should receive further tests and/or would likely respond to therapy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terri_Schiavo
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Old 03-21-2005   #11
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Re: Bush signs Schiavo law

that's my point.

if you wouldn't want to live through that, how would you feel if your parents forced you to?

if anything, it's worse.

they're keeping her alive, and suffering, so that they can avoid their own grief.

they're being selfish, and they're being bad parents.

...

they say that she can communicate with them - even if only minimally.

have they tried asking her what she wants?
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Old 03-21-2005   #12
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Re: Bush signs Schiavo law

and what if she wants to live? Is it better to assume she wants to die?
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Old 03-21-2005   #13
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Re: Bush signs Schiavo law

again: have they tried asking her?

has she made any sign that she wants continue a life of suffering?

if she's going to remain in a vegetative state [and, to be honest, i find the claims that she has the ability to communicate rather suspect considering the numerous doctor evaluations], do you really believe that:

1) she wishes to continue a life confined to a bed?
2) she enjoys being alive, and yet not actually living?
3) she would wish to perpetuate an existence that forces her to live through her husband's love affair, and a series of court cases over whether or not she should be fed?
4) she enjoys seeing her parents fight to keep her alive and helpless so that they don't have to face loss?

do you really believe she has a life worth living?

would you really consider all that being 'alive' at all?
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Old 03-21-2005   #14
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Re: Bush signs Schiavo law

This may answer some of the questions that were raised in this thread.

This is the definition of what Terri Shiavo is going through:

PERSISTENT VEGETATIVE STATE

This term is commonly, but incorrectly, referred to as "brain-death." It can follow a coma.
People in a persistent vegetative state cannot think, speak or respond to commands and are not aware of their surroundings. They may have noncognitive functions and breathing and circulation may remain relatively intact.

They also might move spontaneously and even grimace, cry or laugh. Some people might regain some awareness after being in a persistent vegetative state, but others might remain in the state for decades.

Source: National Institutes of Health
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Old 03-21-2005   #15
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Re: Bush signs Schiavo law

Quote:
Originally Said by Rock ur socks
and what if she wants to live? Is it better to assume she wants to die?
who the hell would want to live in the state she is in right now.
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Old 03-21-2005   #16
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Re: Bush signs Schiavo law

My cousin had an accident and our family went through a similar situation just before he died. This was our dilemna for several days. To us, he died twice. When you first realize that your loved one will never make the same jokes or give you those same hugs, that's when you know that even if they live, they're basically still dead. Of course his mother would have been happy to take care of him like a child for the rest of his life and I suspect this is exactly how her parents feel. Anything is better than losing your child. As far as her state, I wouldn't be surprised if most of the reactions they notice are involuntary. When they're lieing there you'll convince yourself that any type of movement or twitch was intentional communication. If she'd been in this state for a month, it wouldn't be too odd to pray for (and expect) a miracle, but after 15 years, I think it's cruel to keep her alive. Even if her husband had waited for her, life as she knows it doesn't exist anymore, she missed out on so much.
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Old 03-21-2005   #17
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Re: Bush signs Schiavo law

Quote:
Originally Said by Madre
This may answer some of the questions that were raised in this thread.

This is the definition of what Terri Shiavo is going through:

PERSISTENT VEGETATIVE STATE

This term is commonly, but incorrectly, referred to as "brain-death." It can follow a coma.
People in a persistent vegetative state cannot think, speak or respond to commands and are not aware of their surroundings. They may have noncognitive functions and breathing and circulation may remain relatively intact.

They also might move spontaneously and even grimace, cry or laugh. Some people might regain some awareness after being in a persistent vegetative state, but others might remain in the state for decades.

Source: National Institutes of Health
Obviously she is not in a persistent vegetative state.

Quote:
Her family, and medical experts who support their position, claim that she smiles, laughs, cries, moves, and makes child-like attempts at speech. Sometimes she has been reported to say "Mom" or "Dad" or "yeah" when her parents ask her a question. When they kiss her, they claim she looks at them and sometimes "puckers up" her lips. They cite the testimony and affidavits of 33 physicians and therapists (including 15 neurologists), who, after reviewing video segments provided by her parents, believe that Ms. Schiavo should receive further tests and/or would likely respond to therapy.
Moreover, if they remove the feeding tube she will die from starvation. Who the hell wants to watch their child starve to death? If they did want her to die is there not something they could do that's less painful emotional and maybe physically for her?
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Old 03-21-2005   #18
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Re: Bush signs Schiavo law

the doctors have diagnosed her as being in a 'persistent vegetative state'. once you find me a source from a doctor stating otherwise, then i'll consider the possibility. until then though, all the evidence you have put forward is simply examples of the ways in which her reflexes have worked in just the way they do for people in terri's state.

as for her starving to death: i agree, it isn't necessarily the kindest way to go about it, but unless they have permission to giver her a lethal injection, or some other form of death inducing method, then it is the only way to finally let her go.

that said, because of the state she is in, the amount of feeling she experiences is extremely limited, if any at all. there is the possibility that even in starving to death, she won't actually feel it, though her body will be going through all the motions. it may be slow, but it probably won't be painful, and she'll likely pass out from hunger before she dies - so in effect, she will end up dying in her sleep.
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Old 03-21-2005   #19
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Re: Bush signs Schiavo law

speak or respond to commands: http://www.blogsforterri.com/video/C...nWithTerri.wmv
are not aware of their surroundings:
http://www.multistalkervictims.org/o...ri-balloon.rmm
http://www.multistalkervictims.org/o..._that_cold.rmm
http://www.multistalkervictims.org/o...erri-music.rmm
http://www.multistalkervictims.org/o...terri-swab.rmm
http://www.multistalkervictims.org/o.../terri-mum.rmm

watch those videos and tell me that women deserves to die
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Old 03-21-2005   #20
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Re: Bush signs Schiavo law

Quote:
Originally Said by johnathanau1
who the hell would want to live in the state she is in right now.
Someone who is in the state she is in now. I am in no doubt wehatsoever that she would rather live like a normal person but that isn't possible and whilst she may not be content with her present state, she may not want to give up what life she still has.
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