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Old 12-17-2005   #1
teckiechickie
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Bush, Iraq and falsified statements.

I've started this thread because i've noticed that on many other posts, it seems that people have been under flase ideas for a while. Ok so here goes...

Sadam has NOTHING to do with 9/11. So if you're talking about 9/11 and Sadam in the same sentence, you're already wrong because that's not what the war is about. Right after 9/11, Bush said he wanted to go and take out the terrorists. Right away we had Osama pinpointed as the man in charge of the attacks. However, we went into Iraq where Sadam is instead of Iran where Osama is (coincidentaly, there is alot of oil in Iraq and none in Iran, but that's another story).

Whether or not we should have invaded, I cannot properly address because I am not that well informed (and neither are any of you) about the topic. However, it is wrong and stupid to invade a country to liberate them, when they do not want to be liberated. France wanted to be liberated and we helped them a long time ago. Even before that, the US wanted to be liberated and France helped with that. Cuba wanted help, and we did what we could. Now, Iraq does not want to be a democratic country. They might not like the current leader, but they don't need democracy to be happy.

Iraq's religious and political makeup is one that cannot and will not allow a democracy to thrive. The war between the Suni's and the Shiites has been so rampant that for us to try to solve a problem that's exsisted for hundreds of years is not permissible. The people of the country of iraq don't even want to be helped. And now that we have "helped" (i.E. blown up the entire place) it is in ruins and we want to pull all of our troops out of the country before we can put it back together again. The whole thing just makes me sick.
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Old 12-17-2005   #2
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Re: Bush, Iraq and falsified statements.

Quote:
Originally Said by teckiechickie
Sadam has NOTHING to do with 9/11. So if you're talking about 9/11 and Sadam in the same sentence, you're already wrong because that's not what the war is about. Right after 9/11, Bush said he wanted to go and take out the terrorists. Right away we had Osama pinpointed as the man in charge of the attacks. However, we went into Iraq where Sadam is instead of Iran where Osama is (coincidentaly, there is alot of oil in Iraq and none in Iran, but that's another story).
Coincidentaly, you are dead wrong about your last statement.

http://www.indexmundi.com/iran/oil_exports.html

That's 2.5 million barrels a day. GG, I win.

Furthermore, in keeping with you're introductory statement for this thread, there are two main problems. One, you've been here for too short a time to make any judgements about "people.. be[ing] under flase ideas for a while." Two, none of the conservatives here have said a thing about a 9-11/Sadaam tie. If they did, I apologize, but I will need proof. Unless you have any, you are pulling shit out of your ass.

Ugh. More later, sorry.
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Old 12-17-2005   #3
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Re: Bush, Iraq and falsified statements.

Quote:
Originally Said by Bleed Black
you are pulling shit out of your ass.
hahahaahha!!!

it would of worked better if you had used the "Your talking shit" or a shit talking variant, what you used is too factual...still funny, so rep! lol
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Old 12-17-2005   #4
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Re: Bush, Iraq and falsified statements.

Actually, I started this because of posts I have read on the thread "George's Bush" and as I was trying to respond to what alot of people were saying, I decided to start a new thread. And don't give me that I'm new bullshit. it doesn't matter how long I've been here if i can make a valid statement. And if even a few people on this site are making the 911-Sadam ties, and this has been going on for at least 3 years-that's "a while" in my mind and i dont limit myself to talking about people on this site-i think everyone anywhere are fair game here. And as for the oil bit, I am in no way stating that we went to Iraq for oil, but it became a factor after we went over there, sorry for not being clear on that point.
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Old 12-17-2005   #5
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Re: Bush, Iraq and falsified statements.

Upon reviewing the George's Bush thread, I found no one who tied the 9/11 attacks to Saddam. Can you link me to a specific post?

And Iran isn't where Osama was at the time. I don't know where you got that. Many sources I've looked at say he was in Pakistan or Afghanistan.
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Old 12-17-2005   #6
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Re: Bush, Iraq and falsified statements.

That's where he's been linked lately, and even so when we went to "take out the terrorists" we didn't do too much searching in either of those countries now did we?
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Old 12-18-2005   #7
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Re: Bush, Iraq and falsified statements.

Quote:
Originally Said by teckiechickie
That's where he's been linked lately, and even so when we went to "take out the terrorists" we didn't do too much searching in either of those countries now did we?
What the hell are you talking about? Not only did we invade Afghanistan, we replaced their old regime because they supported terrorists. We are still looking for Osama in Afghanistan today, four years after we first got there. We would be looking in Pakistan, but their government won't let us in. You are honestly one of the most misinformed people I have ever debated with.

Quote:
And don't give me that I'm new bullshit. it doesn't matter how long I've been here if i can make a valid statement. And if even a few people on this site are making the 911-Sadam ties, and this has been going on for at least 3 years-that's "a while" in my mind and i dont limit myself to talking about people on this site-i think everyone anywhere are fair game here.
Yes it does. You can't say that "people have been under false ideas" when you haven't been her long enough to see very many people. Furthermore, nobody is under any of these ideas. Especially the 9-11/Sadaam ties, because (not to sound aarogant) I wouldn't let that slide. If anybody had ever linked the two, I would have pointed it out because it makes our side look like dumbasses.

Once again, I ask for proof of your statements: show me were people said the things you are refering to.

Quote:
And as for the oil bit, I am in no way stating that we went to Iraq for oil, but it became a factor after we went over there, sorry for not being clear on that point.
Then why did you even bring it up? Simple: you want to associate the IRaq war with alterior motives because you think that would discredit it, and all you did was make a fool of yourself by showing you have no idea about oil exports in the Middle East.

Quote:
However, it is wrong and stupid to invade a country to liberate them, when they do not want to be liberated.
Who says Iraq didn't want to be liberated? Of course they did; they were being opressed, murdered, and raped by their leaders.

Quote:
France wanted to be liberated and we helped them a long time ago. Even before that, the US wanted to be liberated and France helped with that.
While France did help the US in the Revolutionary War, they did not make an incredible amount of difference.

Quote:
Cuba wanted help, and we did what we could.
What do you mean we did what we could? We went down and helped them defeat Spain, what else could we have done?

Quote:
Now, Iraq does not want to be a democratic country.
Prove it.

Quote:
They might not like the current leader, but they don't need democracy to be happy.
While you are correct in saying that one does not need to be happy, it is most definitely a better choice than a dictatorship.

Under your logic, we should have just left the Iraquis to die and suffer from Sadaam. What a wonderful humanist you are.

Quote:
Iraq's religious and political makeup is one that cannot and will not allow a democracy to thrive.
As I said in the last thread, this is one of the most racist statements I've heard in a while. I'm sure the Muslims on this site will just love to read that their religion isn't capable of handling freedom and equality.

Quote:
The war between the Suni's and the Shiites has been so rampant that for us to try to solve a problem that's exsisted for hundreds of years is not permissible.
We're not trying to solve that problem, we're trying to establish a new government there.

Quote:
The people of the country of iraq don't even want to be helped.
Once again, prove it.

Quote:
And now that we have "helped" (i.E. blown up the entire place) it is in ruins and we want to pull all of our troops out of the country before we can put it back together again. The whole thing just makes me sick.
Correction: you want to pull the troops out. It is you and your democratic party that want troops to leave Iraq and abandon the people there. I want them to stay until the country is stable, and it is becoming more so every day. Insurgent attacks are down, they just had free elections with very few deaths, they have a new constitution, and are creating a formidable army and police force. I hope to see our troops home soon, but they need to stay until the country is capable of defending itself.
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Old 12-18-2005   #8
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Re: Bush, Iraq and falsified statements.

God, I'm getting further and further disgusted with democrats. Yes, I am one, and yes, I probably always will be, but it seems like we get more and more generalized with our statements.

I want to make it firmly clear that I am anti-war, but now we've gotten into such a mess that it would be impossible to pull troops out now. I think they should make ending the war their main objective, not winning the war (because what are we fighting anyway - terror?), and in a way they're the same thing.

However, the Bush bashing is doing liberals no credit. We focus so on Bush's impaired IQ, and completely miss the political errors.
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Old 12-18-2005   #9
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Re: Bush, Iraq and falsified statements.

Quote:
Originally Said by Bleed Black (said to techiechickie)
You are honestly one of the most misinformed people I have ever debated with.
I feel offended!! did you forget you've debated with me before?
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Old 12-18-2005   #10
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Re: Bush, Iraq and falsified statements.

Quote:
Originally Said by Mr Stabby
I feel offended!! did you forget you've debated with me before?
He didn't say 'the most,' he said 'one of the most.'
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Old 12-18-2005   #11
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Re: Bush, Iraq and falsified statements.

yea well I still feel offended....I feel jealous...someones trying to take my crown...waaaaaaaa hahahaha
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Old 12-19-2005   #12
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Re: Bush, Iraq and falsified statements.

You know I had to debate you too bleed... however, this is one of the few times when I agree with you on most things. I agree that she was going too far in saying that those people who were being murdered by their own government did not want to be freed. Yeah, that's why thousands of them would flee the country I'm sure, because they didn't want to be free(sarcasm). Anyway, that aside...

Quote:
Originally Said by Bleed Black
What the hell are you talking about? Not only did we invade Afghanistan, we replaced their old regime because they supported terrorists. We are still looking for Osama in Afghanistan today, four years after we first got there. We would be looking in Pakistan, but their government won't let us in.
While it is true that we are still looking for him there, we've toned down the search severely after invading Iraq:
Quote:
Originally Said by GlobalSecurity.org
"We have a huge ongoing mission in Afghanistan," Spratt said. "Yet we’ve only got 12,000 troops there. … Are we slighting and undersizing, under-resourcing the mission in Afghanistan because of the demands on the mission in Iraq?"
Quote:
Yes it does. You can't say that "people have been under false ideas" when you haven't been her long enough to see very many people. Furthermore, nobody is under any of these ideas. Especially the 9-11/Sadaam ties, because (not to sound aarogant) I wouldn't let that slide. If anybody had ever linked the two, I would have pointed it out because it makes our side look like dumbasses.
She could say that if she could give us proof of where someone has said it, but until she does, she needs to not defend that point.

Quote:
While France did help the US in the Revolutionary War, they did not make an incredible amount of difference.
Here's where you're quite wrong If it weren't for the french navy, general cornwallis would have been able to escape at yorktown, regrouped somewhere else and continued with the war. The continental army's push on yorktown was kind of a final thrust, if we had lost there, we probably would have lost the rest of the war.. also, there's the thing about the french generals training the revolutionaries, but that wasn't of as much importance.

Quote:
What do you mean we did what we could? We went down and helped them defeat Spain, what else could we have done?
I think she was talking about Fidel Castro and the Bay of Pigs thing.

Anyway, for once, I tend to agree more with bleed than whoever he's debating beware! the apocalypse is near!!!
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Old 12-19-2005   #13
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Re: Bush, Iraq and falsified statements.

Quote:
Originally Said by Sytrohs87
While it is true that we are still looking for him there, we've toned down the search severely after invading Iraq:
That's an interesting fact, but I'm not entirely convinced it's because we invaded IRaq. We're pretty sure Osama is hiding in Pakistan, so there's not much of a point in keeping that many troops in a country that doesn't need them. The remaining troops are mostly assisting the local Afghan officials and army, and of course there are still some looking. Just in case.

Quote:
She could say that if she could give us proof of where someone has said it, but until she does, she needs to not defend that point.
She needs to defend this point if she wishes to keep saying she's seen "many people" under these false ideas.

Quote:
Here's where you're quite wrong If it weren't for the french navy, general cornwallis would have been able to escape at yorktown, regrouped somewhere else and continued with the war. The continental army's push on yorktown was kind of a final thrust, if we had lost there, we probably would have lost the rest of the war.. also, there's the thing about the french generals training the revolutionaries, but that wasn't of as much importance.
I don't mind being wrong. Admittedly, I probably did undercut the amount of help the French gave us, so I will concede that they did help more. I looked it up (Plus I took AP US History last year, so I have good idea of the subject) and I'm still not entirely convinced that the British army would have been able to regroup and continue. However, I could be wrong.

Quote:
I think she was talking about Fidel Castro and the Bay of Pigs thing.
The Bay of Pigs invasion was an attenpt on Fidel Castro's life, I believe. We weren't trying to liberate the country, we just wanted to stop them from turning to communism. In the Spanish-American war, though, we did liberate them.

Quote:
Anyway, for once, I tend to agree more with bleed than whoever he's debating beware! the apocalypse is near!!!
Don't worry. Contrary to popular belief, I'm actually not all that conservative, though here and at my school that's pretty much my reputation. I'm definitely more in line with the Republicans, but I hate the leadership (And I absolutely abhore the Democratic leaders). On the tests I've taken, I've always scored nearly exactly right down the middle for Conservative/Liberal. I guess the main thing is that I feel the Democrats/Liberals complain to much, and I like fighting people who complain.
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Old 12-19-2005   #14
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Re: Bush, Iraq and falsified statements.

So in other words, you'd vote for whomever was the best candidate regardless of political affiliation? Because, that could be one more vote for Mark Warner(Virginia's governor ). He's a democrat that won in a traditionally republican state simply because he's, you know, rational and a centrist. Also, he's one of the top contenders for the Democrat presidential ticket in 2008, seeing as he's a Democrat governor with a 74% approval rate in a state that's voted republican in every presidential election since the fifties. I guess you'll have to wait and see his policies before you decide.

hahaha, sorry if I seemed a bit excited, but I kind of am, just because Virginia might vote for a Democrat presidential candidate for once.
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Old 12-20-2005   #15
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Re: Bush, Iraq and falsified statements.

Mark Warner's cool. I'd have to look more into what he says about other people in his party and the Republican party though.
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Old 12-21-2005   #16
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Re: Bush, Iraq and falsified statements.

It was me, I said there was a connection between Saddam and 9/11. Al queda bombed the World Trade Center. Al queda trained troops in Iraq with the blessing of Saddam. WTF, that is a solid connection. I don't know if Arazawee or whoever really met with Osama in Germany before 9/11. But training the killers in Iraq is enough of a connection for me. I would have preferred a surgical strike like Reagan slapped on Kudafi in Libya.

The other things teckieChickie said, too far out there. I am glad you admit that you are not well informed.
Shit, I cannot help myself;
There are many successful democracies that have oppossing ethnic groups, ie. USA, Australia, France.
Trust me, victims of genocide, oppression, torture want some damned help.
And if you know where Osama is, we need to get you a job with the CIA.

Congratulations, worst post I have ever read on Almost Smart.
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Old 12-22-2005   #17
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Re: Bush, Iraq and falsified statements.

I just realized something which is going to suck if Warner runs for president. If we're still at war, he's going to be shit out of luck since he has no military experience as far as I can remember. The Republicans are going to jump on that most definitely. It'll be interesting to see, though, if they declare victory in Iraq before 2008, so that we won't have an on-going war to be blamed on Republicans. Either that, or keep the war going if the Democrats go with Warner since he has no military experience. I don't know, but you can be damn sure who Virginia's going to vote for if he runs.. with a 48% margin over the competition with the current level of his approval rating
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Old 02-14-2006   #18
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Re: Bush, Iraq and falsified statements.

I'm sorry-but there is no connection between Saddam Hussein and terrorism-while I agree that he was nuts (and am somewhat happy to see that he can't torture his people anymore...) I still can't understand why we went into Iraq-Personally it would be nice to focus on terror in general and take out Osama bin Laden and his leutenuits before we go and police the world in arrogance. I'm sorry but all we've essentially done with Iraq is give them a battlefield to distract our search for their actual headquarters-our forces are tied down and could be tied down for awhile and now we're having problems with Russia and Iran exchanging uranium and building *dramatic drum roll* "REAL" weapons of mass destruction-problem?.....I think so....can we do anything about it...i'm not so sure.....I'm a very devout Christian and if you read the book of Revelation and chapters 38 and 39 of the Book of Ezekial-you'll see why I feel we have no solution for this problem.

Anyways....I'm simply saying that there is no absolute document to support suspicion and reason against Iraq-though the point is rather pointless now b/c we've already made a plunge into disaster with this move. How are we supposed to win the war on terror when we're fighting a nation that had no terrorists-we have helped their cause with this invasion hence we have insurgents fighting us who aren't even Iraqi-they're terrorists and now they have an area to initiate attacks against us (we can't even keep them from crossing through the border) and they can spread propaganda against the west....so you see....our problems are only starting-it's going to get worst-trust me

On top of that-we're so distracted with Iraq-the American economy is suffering from paying for it-we're not helping Africa at all (which is also having anti western propagadna spread through it right now) and we're too distracted to help Afghanistan-sure we control Afghanistan's pipeline but thier narcotics problem is up by 70%-that's pretty much how they make thier living-we're too busy fighting in Iraq to even help these people that we promised to help-and more propaganda spreads and bin Laden hides in Afghanistand and Pakistan plotting another attack.

Point is: We've handled a situation very badly and we can't get out of it-we've missed the target and we're in trouble.
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Old 02-14-2006   #19
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Re: Bush, Iraq and falsified statements.

Leave Iraq.

Go home.

Nothing is being accomplished.
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Old 02-14-2006   #20
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Re: Bush, Iraq and falsified statements.

Quote:
Originally Said by Macster
I'm sorry but all we've essentially done with Iraq is give them a battlefield to distract our search for their actual headquarters-our forces are tied down and could be tied down for awhile and now we're having problems with Russia and Iran exchanging uranium and building *dramatic drum roll* "REAL" weapons of mass destruction-problem?.....I think so....can we do anything about it...i'm not so sure.....I'm a very devout Christian and if you read the book of Revelation and chapters 38 and 39 of the Book of Ezekial-you'll see why I feel we have no solution for this problem.



Point is: We've handled a situation very badly and we can't get out of it-we've missed the target and we're in trouble.
I couldn't stand to read anymore of your ramblings... I couldn't find any "obvious" point besides the one you tried to make at the end. You should pray for a brain.

As far as your rant about WMDs, russia trading with iran, and the rest of that garbage... you should research some of the S.T.A.R. treaty.

Let me school you for a second on WMDs, mainly nukes. I am active duty air force. My job title is "Nuclear Weapons Maintenance Technician." My information for this class session is relevant and credible.

Class will begin with the S.T.A.R. treaty. It stands for STrategic Arms Reduction and was established to allow assement of the U.S., Russian, and NATO nuclear weapon arsenals. Basically a way for each to monitor the other's arsenals and keep tabs on production, alert rates, and capabilities. I have personally been involved with escorting the Russian officials through our weapons storage area, maintenance facility, and to the missile field. They, in return, allow us to be escorted through their facilities as well. Part of the agreement is to halt production on weapons, to not negotiate any trades of weapons, and to limit how many are actually in use. One part of that agreement does state that the current weapons CAN BE retrofitted, or modified to improve reliability. Don't you think with each other having people looking at each other's weapons, the question of "well, I see some uranium is missing, where'd that disappear to?" would come up at some point in time?

On to not finding any WMDs in Iraq. I work with the "smallest", yet the most effective nukes in the arsenal. Do your homework on the W-78, W-62, and W-87 (MK-12, MK-12A, and MK-21... respectively) warheads. They are all used in Intercontinental ballistic missiles, with the W-78 warhead being the most potent with a 335 Kiloton explosion. All three warheads are small enough to fit inside of a container the size of 1 1/2 55 gallon drums with room to spare. Now tell me something like that would be easy to find hidden throughout Iraq. Besides... just because the media says WMD haven't been found, doesn't necessarily mean that there hasn't been any at all. Wouldn't you feel safer thinking that there weren't any than to know that there were some?

My conclusion is that you're one of the media's puppets and have a closed mind. Whatever they tell you is the truth as far as you're concerned. You harp on the fact that you're a strong believer in the christian faith, believing in a God that is spoke of in a book passed down through the generations and stated to be true and accurate... yet you refuse to believe in our president and our troops, and that there may in fact be a point of our military being over in Iraq. Do some research before you come in preaching and forcing your veiws and opinions down other people's throats.
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