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Old 10-19-2004   #201
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Re: Please don't vote for Bush

Quote:
Originally Said by HolokittyNX
Yes, UN approval would have justified it in my opinion. And I think we should have gone after Saudi Arabia because they're the bigger terrorist support base.
So... Serious crimes against humanity (attempted genocide on ethnic albanians) had been comitted in Kosovo. The UN authorized a mission (most of the military resources were supplied by the US), and Milosevic is ousted and is now on trial for crimes against humanity.

Similarly, serious crimes against humanity (attempted genocide on Kurds) had been committed in Iraq. The UN doesn't authorize a mission, so the US and a collection of allies oust Hussein and he is now on trial for crimes against humanity.

The difference? The UN was running the corrupt Oil-for-Food program, through which Hussein made almost $2 billion in illegal profit. Much of this money went as kickbacks to UN officials and French and Russian companies (France and Russia were two of the most vocal opposers of the Iraq war).

Right after the UN is finished screaming and crying about Iraq, they insist that the US is morally obligated to send a peacekeeping mission to Sudan to stop... you guessed it... genocide.

Corrupt, maybe?

I'm also interested in your claim that the Saudi government supports terrorism. I've never heard anything about that. Could you tell me more?
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Old 10-19-2004   #202
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Re: Please don't vote for Bush

Quote:
Originally Said by Yugoloth
So... Serious crimes against humanity (attempted genocide on ethnic albanians) had been comitted in Kosovo. The UN authorized a mission (most of the military resources were supplied by the US), and Milosevic is ousted and is now on trial for crimes against humanity.

Similarly, serious crimes against humanity (attempted genocide on Kurds) had been committed in Iraq. The UN doesn't authorize a mission, so the US and a collection of allies oust Hussein and he is now on trial for crimes against humanity.

The difference? The UN was running the corrupt Oil-for-Food program, through which Hussein made almost $2 billion in illegal profit. Much of this money went as kickbacks to UN officials and French and Russian companies (France and Russia were two of the most vocal opposers of the Iraq war).

Right after the UN is finished screaming and crying about Iraq, they insist that the US is morally obligated to send a peacekeeping mission to Sudan to stop... you guessed it... genocide.

Corrupt, maybe?

I'm also interested in your claim that the Saudi government supports terrorism. I've never heard anything about that. Could you tell me more?
You've never heard anything about it? It's THE elephant in the room where the US' dealings with the Mideast are concerned. Colin Powell all but admitted that various Saudi Princes were paying off multiple terrorist networks to keep themselves off their hitlists.

As for the UN, I'll admit they should be held accountable for corruption. But corruption doesn't change the fact that the alternative to working with the UN (of which Iraq is a member) is to pick and choose people to attack on any grounds we see fit. The US government is rife with corruption too. That doesn't therefore mean ignoring federal law at will.

Nor did Bush sell the war in Iraq as a humanitarian mission until after the fact. He sold it as necessary for the war on terrorism, which it wasn't.
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Old 10-19-2004   #203
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Re: Please don't vote for Bush

Quote:
Originally Said by HolokittyNX
You've never heard anything about it? It's THE elephant in the room where the US' dealings with the Mideast are concerned. Colin Powell all but admitted that various Saudi Princes were paying off multiple terrorist networks to keep themselves off their hitlists.

As for the UN, I'll admit they should be held accountable for corruption. But corruption doesn't change the fact that the alternative to working with the UN (of which Iraq is a member) is to pick and choose people to attack on any grounds we see fit. The US government is rife with corruption too. That doesn't therefore mean ignoring federal law at will.

Nor did Bush sell the war in Iraq as a humanitarian mission until after the fact. He sold it as necessary for the war on terrorism, which it wasn't.
Nope. Never heard a thing. I do know that officially the Saudi government cooperates with the US, allows the US to station military personal in Saudi Arabia, and allows the US to stage military operations. The stability of Saudi Arabia is important for our oil supply. Instead of "going after" the Saudis, what we need to do is help them construct a stronger system of law enforcement so that their people wouldn't need to fear terrorists.

Comparing breaking UN mandate to breaking federal law is an interesting point, but the real difference is that breaking a federal law will result in my ass going to jail, whereas breaking UN mandate results in... nothing, because the UN has no power to enforce them. And saying that Iraq is a member of the UN reminds me of another classic example of the organization's decrepitude: Libya held the chair of leadership of the UN Human Rights council, which also featured members with such storied histories of human rights abuses as Sudan, China, and Cuba.

And you'll recall that Bush's war on terrorism was on terrorism in general, not just terrorism committed on the United States. You'll also recall that Iraq supports Palestinean terrorism against our ally, the Israelis. And now we'll never know whether or not it was necessary against the war on terror. On September 10th, 2001, you might have said that an invasion of Afghanistan wasn't necessary for preserving our national security. The next terrorist attack on the United States won't be something that we can anticipate, just like 9/11 wasn't something anticipated, even though it wasn't al Qaeda's first attempt at bombing the WTC. The next big attack may well have come from Iraq, and at the time that Bush decided to invade, the CIA suggested that there was a high probability that the Iraqis would be the culprits. Since then, the CIA has rescinded, so I don't see how you hold Bush responsible.

It's also interesting to point out that Congress approved the war... One of the senators that voted "yea" was our esteemed presidential candidate, John Kerry.
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Old 10-19-2004   #204
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Re: Please don't vote for Bush

ok, i am going to post this blurb about politics here...

i think in an election you can't 100% forget the candidates political party. for those of you who have never really considered what makes democrats and republicans so very different, take some time to go and read this article (its lengthy): http://www.topplebush.com/article75_recpres.shtml

this focuses on one of the big differences between the parties (taxes). i say partially forget what you think of the candidate personally and remember what the parties stand for. and also, please please please remember that hardly ANY journalist doesn't put their own bias spin on the articles they write (and that includes the one i linked above). take every "fact" with a grain of salt and do some research when you read something you think will potentially change your political affiliation.

you might think i am a democrat by the article i linked but i am not, i am republican and i personally don't think people deserve handouts from the government and that the rich shouldn't be forced to pay for the poor. so that is why i think the above article is good. it might make the republicans sound bad but its all about taking the bias away. i don't need to debate this viewpoint, read and believe what you want, but read. don't just take someone else's opinion as fact.

oh and i will throw this in as well, even though WMDs have not been found yet, how many of you heard about this?

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...6/105528.shtml


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Old 10-20-2004   #205
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Re: Please don't vote for Bush

Quote:
Originally Said by egoboy
ok, i am going to post this blurb about politics here...

i think in an election you can't 100% forget the candidates political party. for those of you who have never really considered what makes democrats and republicans so very different, take some time to go and read this article (its lengthy): http://www.topplebush.com/article75_recpres.shtml

this focuses on one of the big differences between the parties (taxes). i say partially forget what you think of the candidate personally and remember what the parties stand for. and also, please please please remember that hardly ANY journalist doesn't put their own bias spin on the articles they write (and that includes the one i linked above). take every "fact" with a grain of salt and do some research when you read something you think will potentially change your political affiliation.

you might think i am a democrat by the article i linked but i am not, i am republican and i personally don't think people deserve handouts from the government and that the rich shouldn't be forced to pay for the poor. so that is why i think the above article is good. it might make the republicans sound bad but its all about taking the bias away. i don't need to debate this viewpoint, read and believe what you want, but read. don't just take someone else's opinion as fact.

oh and i will throw this in as well, even though WMDs have not been found yet, how many of you heard about this?

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...6/105528.shtml


ego :D
Lol, that article was long. The spin on it was incredible. "Starve-the-beast" economists! Sinister.

I had read about the buried MIG, but I've never seen a picture. That is neat.
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Old 10-20-2004   #206
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Re: Please don't vote for Bush

Quote:
Originally Said by Yugoloth
Nope. Never heard a thing. I do know that officially the Saudi government cooperates with the US, allows the US to station military personal in Saudi Arabia, and allows the US to stage military operations. The stability of Saudi Arabia is important for our oil supply.
No, it's not. Over 90% of our oil comes from American sources. And even if it were otherwise I wouldn't care. We should avoid economic dealings with the Mideast until they start building relevant civilizations on their own.

Quote:
Instead of "going after" the Saudis, what we need to do is help them construct a stronger system of law enforcement so that their people wouldn't need to fear terrorists.

Comparing breaking UN mandate to breaking federal law is an interesting point, but the real difference is that breaking a federal law will result in my ass going to jail, whereas breaking UN mandate results in... nothing, because the UN has no power to enforce them. And saying that Iraq is a member of the UN reminds me of another classic example of the organization's decrepitude: Libya held the chair of leadership of the UN Human Rights council, which also featured members with such storied histories of human rights abuses as Sudan, China, and Cuba.
Then we should end our UN membership. But while we're members we should cooperate with them. We can't have it both ways. Well, we can. But it makes us hypocrites.

Quote:
And you'll recall that Bush's war on terrorism was on terrorism in general, not just terrorism committed on the United States.
A goal I don't approve of. Worldwide terrorism cannot be eradicated by any amount of miltary force. Protecting a single country, on the other hand, is a more finite goal.

Quote:
You'll also recall that Iraq supports Palestinean terrorism against our ally, the Israelis.
When did I say I agree with us being 'allies' with Israel? Israel is as much a waste of our time as Iran. Let them defend themselves.

Quote:
And now we'll never know whether or not it was necessary against the war on terror. On September 10th, 2001, you might have said that an invasion of Afghanistan wasn't necessary for preserving our national security.
Actually I thought we should have invaded Afghanistan the minute Osama reared his ugly head. Tomahawks weren't enough.

Quote:
The next terrorist attack on the United States won't be something that we can anticipate, just like 9/11 wasn't something anticipated, even though it wasn't al Qaeda's first attempt at bombing the WTC. The next big attack may well have come from Iraq, and at the time that Bush decided to invade, the CIA suggested that there was a high probability that the Iraqis would be the culprits. Since then, the CIA has rescinded, so I don't see how you hold Bush responsible.

It's also interesting to point out that Congress approved the war... One of the senators that voted "yea" was our esteemed presidential candidate, John Kerry.
So...we don't know if the attack on Iraq was justified, therefore it was? And the CIA's estimation of whether Iraq would have attacked us is neither infallible nor free of political motivation.

Oh, and Kerry didn't vote for the war (Congress didn't vote on that). He voted to let the President decide whether to go to war or not (that's what Congress voted on).
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Old 10-20-2004   #207
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Re: Please don't vote for Bush

Quote:
Originally Said by RubberDucky55
well, now that was just a bit uncalled for. you should notice that he was talking about a thread, not the real polls.

and even if he was, that was pretty damn rude.
yehhh....you more younger,but you clevered than him..
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Old 10-20-2004   #208
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Re: Please don't vote for Bush

While we're insulting people, let's have a grammar lesson.

Quote:
Originally Said by shahrul
yehhh....
This isn't even a word. Perhaps you mean "Yeah," but you spelled it wrong. It's also good to remember to put only three periods when doing an extended thought. Also, always capitalize the first word of a sentence.

Quote:
you more younger,
While factually true, there's a lot wrong with this. Firstly, when refering to someone, "you" becomes "you are" or "you're" (A contraction). Secondly, one can't say "more younger, as it's redundant. One could say "more young" or simply "younger," but you decided to do both, which does not work.

Quote:
but you clevered than him..
This statement is not true, and there's a lot wrong with it. Firstly, once again you must use "you are" or "you're" in the place of "you." If one leaves it as "you," one would sound like a cave man. Judging by your grammar, you may be one. Secondly, "clevered?" "Clever" is not a verb, it is an adjective and you are using it as a verb here. One would just say "clever." Thirdly, one cannot simply say "you're clever than him," one must add the word "more" between "you're" and "clever," making it "you're more clever." Finally, you must use either 1 or 3 periods at the end of your sentence.

The final sentence, with corrections, reads:

"Yeah...you're younger than him, but you're more clever..."

Overall, very very poor. I would give it an F+, at most.
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Old 10-20-2004   #209
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Re: Please don't vote for Bush

oh good work, butcher his spelling cause he can't speak english very well, nice fucking job, you get axed in here and rather than try to make yourself look good you need to drag him down, very very poor work their bleed black, very poor indeed,

-EDIT-

I'd like to see you speak and write in his language fluently, he's doing a very good fucking job
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Old 10-20-2004   #210
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Re: Please don't vote for Bush

Quote:
Originally Said by Bleed Black
This isn't even a word. Perhaps you mean "Yeah," but you spelled it wrong. It's also good to remember to put only three periods when doing an extended thought. Also, always capitalize the first word of a sentence.
Quote:
Originally Said by Bleed Black
the percent probability is defientely[sic] greater than 40%
Don't be a hypocrite just because someone doesn't hold the same opinions as you.
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Old 10-20-2004   #211
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Re: Please don't vote for Bush

Quote:
Originally said by HolloKittyNX
Oh, and Kerry didn't vote for the war (Congress didn't vote on that). He voted to let the President decide whether to go to war or not (that's what Congress voted on).
http://www.cato.org/dailys/02-26-02.html

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/11/iraq.us/

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Old 10-20-2004   #212
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Re: Please don't vote for Bush

Quote:
Originally Said by Bleed Black
While we're insulting people, let's have a grammar lesson.

This isn't even a word. Perhaps you mean "Yeah," but you spelled it wrong. It's also good to remember to put only three periods when doing an extended thought. Also, always capitalize the first word of a sentence.

While factually true, there's a lot wrong with this. Firstly, when refering to someone, "you" becomes "you are" or "you're" (A contraction). Secondly, one can't say "more younger, as it's redundant. One could say "more young" or simply "younger," but you decided to do both, which does not work.

This statement is not true, and there's a lot wrong with it. Firstly, once again you must use "you are" or "you're" in the place of "you." If one leaves it as "you," one would sound like a cave man. Judging by your grammar, you may be one. Secondly, "clevered?" "Clever" is not a verb, it is an adjective and you are using it as a verb here. One would just say "clever." Thirdly, one cannot simply say "you're clever than him," one must add the word "more" between "you're" and "clever," making it "you're more clever." Finally, you must use either 1 or 3 periods at the end of your sentence.

The final sentence, with corrections, reads:

"Yeah...you're younger than him, but you're more clever..."

Overall, very very poor. I would give it an F+, at most.
wow, nice comeback bleed black. you sure showed him, huh? especially when english isnt his first language.

if you cant defend yourself, dont insult the person. people might take you much more seriously if you dont resort to that crap.
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Old 10-20-2004   #213
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Re: Please don't vote for Bush

Quote:
Originally Said by stonic
oh good work, butcher his spelling cause he can't speak english very well, nice fucking job, you get axed in here and rather than try to make yourself look good you need to drag him down, very very poor work their bleed black, very poor indeed,
What should I have done? Called him an idiot? Flame him? Maybe just say that he was wrong? No, I couldn't have done any of those things, because then I would be open for an attack from you people for the same thing.

So basically, any reply to his post would either get me flamed or get replies that make me look bad. Screwed either way?

Quote:
-EDIT-

I'd like to see you speak and write in his language fluently, he's doing a very good fucking job
Being foreign is no excuse for bad grammar.

Quote:
Originally Said by Weasel
Don't be a hypocrite just because someone doesn't hold the same opinions as you.
Calling me dumb is not having a different opinion. And yes, I spelled that wrong, but there's a difference between typos and not knowing words.

Quote:
Originally Said by RubberDucky55
wow, nice comeback bleed black. you sure showed him, huh? especially when english isnt his first language.
It's better than any of the stuff I've seen you post in the past month. Now all you post is worthless "crap" (As you put it) trying to raise your post count. Your posts normally read "Good Job!! congrats!!" or "no lol that's not true" when they used to be thought out arguments. I don't know if you ever had any respect for me, but I did for you and now you've totally lost it.

Quote:
if you cant defend yourself, dont insult the person. people might take you much more seriously if you dont resort to that crap.
There are few here that can beat me in a debate, the way I see it: Holokitty, Verilon, CStoll, Yugoloth, and probably Weasel (But we haven't really had an involved one yet). Sharul is not one that comes to mind. Tell me, how would you have "defended yourself" against his post? There's no way to defend against a personal attack, except with another. Mine was in good taste, notice how I didn't say "STFU I HATE YOU YOU SUCK" or "GO TO HELL YOU FAG ASS MALAYSIAN," I made a witty reply.

And also, people might take me seriously? My posts are very serious, and people take them that way, that's why you all have attacked me for what I've said. You, on the other hand, have many posts 5-15 words in length.
You people are too sensitive.

Last edited by Bleed Black; 10-20-2004 at 03:09 PM.
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Old 10-20-2004   #214
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Re: Please don't vote for Bush

Quote:
Originally Said by Bleed Black
What should I have done? Called him an idiot? Flame him? Maybe just say that he was wrong? No, I couldn't have done any of those things, because then I would be open for an attack from you people for the same thing.

So basically, any reply to his post would either get me flamed or get replies that make me look bad. Screwed either way?
you could have let it go, or maybe even apologize for what you said to him.

Quote:
Originally Said by Bleed Black
It's better than any of the stuff I've seen you post in the past month. Now all you post is worthless "crap" (As you put it) trying to raise your post count. Your posts normally read "Good Job!! congrats!!" or "no lol that's not true" when they used to be thought out arguments. I don't know if you ever had any respect for me, but I did for you and now you've totally lost it.
huh? trying to raise my post count? just because i joke around and dont make each of my posts into paragraphs, doesnt mean theyre pointless or crap, or that im just trying to get more posts. now im assuming your not talking about debates when i say this, but when i say "good job!!!" its because i liked someones poetry or work. i try to be nice, and i try to give them recognition for what they did. i wasnt aware that i had to make everything into an argument. and what kinda crap have i been posting in the past month? and im sorry, when did i use "no lol that's not true " as an argument? i did have respect for you, i think your a decent debater. but i dont like your attitude, and the way you can be so condescending.

Quote:
Originally Said by Bleed Black
There are few here that can beat me in a debate, the way I see it: Holokitty, Verilon, CStoll, Yugoloth, and probably Weasel (But we haven't really had an involved one yet). Sharul is not one that comes to mind. Tell me, how would you have "defended yourself" against his post? There's no way to defend against a personal attack, except with another. Mine was in good taste, notice how I didn't say "STFU I HATE YOU YOU SUCK" or "GO TO HELL YOU FAG ASS MALAYSIAN," I made a witty reply.
a witty reply that was still insulting. you could have called stupid and dumbass and idiot, and that would be the same thing as you posted. or maybe, you could have apologized for yelling at him, to shut the hell up, and to go back to his hole, when you misunderstood what he was talking about.

Quote:
Originally Said by Bleed Black
And also, people might take me seriously? My posts are very serious, and people take them that way, that's why you all have attacked me for what I've said. You, on the other hand, have many posts 5-15 words in length.
and what, you dont? we "attacked" you, because you unfairly "attacked" sharhul, by making fun of him for how he cant speak english very well.
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Old 10-20-2004   #215
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Re: Please don't vote for Bush

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Originally Said by HolokittyNX
No, it's not. Over 90% of our oil comes from American sources. And even if it were otherwise I wouldn't care. We should avoid economic dealings with the Mideast until they start building relevant civilizations on their own.

Then we should end our UN membership. But while we're members we should cooperate with them. We can't have it both ways. Well, we can. But it makes us hypocrites.

A goal I don't approve of. Worldwide terrorism cannot be eradicated by any amount of miltary force. Protecting a single country, on the other hand, is a more finite goal.

When did I say I agree with us being 'allies' with Israel? Israel is as much a waste of our time as Iran. Let them defend themselves.

Actually I thought we should have invaded Afghanistan the minute Osama reared his ugly head. Tomahawks weren't enough.

So...we don't know if the attack on Iraq was justified, therefore it was? And the CIA's estimation of whether Iraq would have attacked us is neither infallible nor free of political motivation.

Oh, and Kerry didn't vote for the war (Congress didn't vote on that). He voted to let the President decide whether to go to war or not (that's what Congress voted on).
The Energy Information Administration says that imports satisfy about 63% of our oil demand, and about 2/5ths of that comes from OPEC. http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/usa.html

And when Congress voted to allow the President to declare war, everyone knew he was planning on declaring war on Iraq. Trying to defend Kerry by passing the buck is only saying that he was ignorant.

Other than that, your post simply isn't worth replying to. I clearly can't change your mind on this issue. Come back when you have something besides your opinion.
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Old 10-20-2004   #216
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Re: Please don't vote for Bush

Quote:
It's better than any of the stuff I've seen you post in the past month. Now all you post is worthless "crap" (As you put it) trying to raise your post count. Your posts normally read "Good Job!! congrats!!" or "no lol that's not true" when they used to be thought out arguments. I don't know if you ever had any respect for me, but I did for you and now you've totally lost it.
what? so when someone wants to congratulate someone on a good post, or to agree/disagree with someone, they have to put a paragraph, or they're posting "worthless crap" or "trying to raise your post count". You're an ass. That's the stupidest thing i've ever seen. I see it as a petty attempt at attacking someone because she opposes your views. Whether it's a subconscious thing on your part or not, i think it's petty and wrong.
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Old 10-20-2004   #217
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Re: Please don't vote for Bush

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Originally Said by Yugoloth
The Energy Information Administration says that imports satisfy about 63% of our oil demand, and about 2/5ths of that comes from OPEC. http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/usa.html
Hm. Conceded. But I still think we need to extricate our interests from the Middle East one way or another. And of course Bush said nothing about oil in selling the war to us.

Quote:
And when Congress voted to allow the President to declare war, everyone knew he was planning on declaring war on Iraq. Trying to defend Kerry by passing the buck is only saying that he was ignorant.
False. The authority was given IF Hussein failed to hand over his WMDs. He had none, so Bush overstepped the authority Congress gave him.

Quote:
Other than that, your post simply isn't worth replying to. I clearly can't change your mind on this issue. Come back when you have something besides your opinion.
Debate is one opinion vs. another. And your concession on the points you failed to address is accepted.
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Old 10-20-2004   #218
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Re: Please don't vote for Bush

snip, ban -weasel

GO BUSH
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Old 10-20-2004   #219
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Re: Please don't vote for Bush

you idiot. i hope you get banned.
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Old 10-20-2004   #220
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Re: Please don't vote for Bush

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Originally Said by HolokittyNX
Debate is one opinion vs. another. And your concession on the points you failed to address is accepted.
Debate involves a position, which one side defends and the other attacks, both through specific arguments. The opinion of the debater means nothing.

Since you always want evidence, the definition of "debate" at dictionary.com says nothing about opinion.

And if you want some examples, I'll give you some: When you said "I think we need to exricate our interests from the Middle East one way or another," this is your opinion. It is meaningless to the debate because your opinion alone won't make me change my mind. However, when you say "The authority IF Hussein failed to hand over his WMDs. He had none, so Bush overstepped the authority Congress gave him," that is an argument. While it is a step in the right direction, this particular contention has already been addressed earlier in the debate.

If you'd like me to address every single one of your statements, you're out of luck; something that you must keep in mind is that I've had this exact discussion about four times on this forum, and very little of what you say is new to me. If you'd like, you can search through the various threads to find my other posts on the subject.
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