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Old 11-30-2004   #181
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Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

Quote:
Originally Said by pennywizeguy
hey moron its same sex mariage not male nad female wow your stupid .... thats original using my mom wow grow up lol read the post next time ...and if your going to reply dont make it stupid
you stated freedom to marry whoever we wanted right?.... read your own post, because it includes your mom. and dont make me come over there and bootfuck you
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Old 11-30-2004   #182
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Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

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Originally Said by Jenn and tonic
That's not discrimination, Kitty. That's for safety's sake. Blind people cannot see, you need your eyes in order to drive. That's more like common sense, not racism or discrimination.
Discrimination is simply the act of seeing two things differently - it's not necessarily disparaging. There's fair discrimination (such as the above, or a traffic cop discriminating between a driver who is drunk and one who isn't), and unfair discrimination (discrimination based on an invalid criterion like who's black or who's gay). It's fair to discriminate between blind people and sighted people in driving because a blind person who drives is accountable to society for the accidents they'll surely cause. It's unfair to discriminate between gay people and straight people because their choices of relationship only affect them. A person's accountability is created by the effects of their actions on others, and those effects have to be direct and (within the affected person's rights) unavoidable on the part of the person affected. Rights-based ethics are a contractarian system - your right to marry someone of the opposite sex is bought at the price of letting others marry someone of the same sex if they wish. No, the right to definition of family is not simply the right to a single type of marriage. By design, rights of exercise such as freedom of speech must allow every possible choice which doesn't violate another person's rights. That's why the right to freedom of religion isn't simply the right to be any type of Christian you want to be.

And IMO the term 'common sense' is useless. There's logic, and there's subjective bullshit. People use the term 'common sense' to refer to subjective bullshit more often than they use it to refer to logic.

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I Don't think she will ever learn that in order for the world to continue the way it is you have to have typical man-woman couples.
I don't want the world to continue the way it is. I want it to improve. And procreation doesn't require married couples or even sex anymore. And nobody is proposing that everyone should be gay or that there should be one more gay person on Earth than there is. You're pretending that gay marriage will decrease the number of straight marriages, which is impossible. Gays who can't marry others of the same sex won't therefore marry the opposite sex (and good luck saying they should to straights who've married closeted gays - that's pain). And gays marrying each other will prevent not one heterosexual couple from marrying.

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ya but it also brings ethics and religion in to question
Religion isn't an issue where the law is concerned. And our current system of ethics forbids giving people different rights based on what they'll do with them. What system of ethics doesn't allow gay marriage, and how do you intend to demonstrate that it's superior to rights-based ethics? I won't hold my breath since you probably think systemic ethics and morality are the same thing. Hint: Most religions use morality rather than systems of ethics, including Christianity (which you don't sincerely want to apply to the law anyway, so don't try it).

Quote:
and also takes children away from normal nuclear families that wait forever for thier adoption to go through and gays think they can just take these kids who have not known the norms of society and turn them gay just like holokitty
So your argument boils down to "gays are worse people than straights." And I wasn't turned bi (not gay, bi), you subsentient piece of shit. No, you're not entitled to an alternate opinion. Whatever the fuck I say about my orientation is true because I said it is. I remember all the way back to being born, and the second I came out I was checking out hotties of both sexes. Prove otherwise, bitch.

And a lesson in logic. Stating that a person's arguments are true or false based on anything about the person is called an ad hominem fallacy. If I'm wrong because I'm bi, that means all I have to do is find a straight person to repeat my arguments (which can be done post haste), and that will magically make them true? No. My arguments' validity has nothing to do with who I am, and unless you would buy the same arguments coming from a straight person then you agree. Concession accepted.

Quote:
Originally Said by ag0ny
you stated freedom to marry whoever we wanted right?.... read your own post, because it includes your mom. and dont make me come over there and bootfuck you
It would be nice if the post contained something other than flames. But thank you sincerely for adding 'bootfuck' to my vocabulary. Fuckin' hilarious.

Last edited by HolokittyNX; 11-30-2004 at 12:47 PM.
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Old 11-30-2004   #183
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Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

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Originally Said by HolokittyNX
Coulda sworn I checked for qualifiers like that...
It's cool, I miss stuff like that all the time.

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That someone chooses to find something offensive doesn't mean it's not valid. Blacks who say they're offended by this justify it by lying about what makes racism wrong. All arguments against gay marriage are either fallacious or based in deliberate lies (I make the distinction because lies aren't technically logical fallacies - you can base flawless logic on false premises such as hypotheticals)...
Firstly, this entire paragraph turns from blacks being offended to them trying to justify their "homophobia." The point is, you can hide that you are a pedophile and a lesbian when you walk down the street, but they cannot hide the fact that they are black. They were enslaved and there were 10x as many hate crimes against them. That is why they are offended; not because they are homophobic, but because of the difference in situations.

Secondly, the highlighted quote is what I'm going to hit on. Married people get tax breaks because MOST (But not all) will have children. Most gay marriages will not have children, but some will. the majority dictates here, and so I say a homosexual marriage deserves a different tax incentive. This is why I'm pro-civil unions.

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Arrogance can be justified. I'm arrogant towards racists, communists, etc. because my values have proven to work better than theirs. And in the case of racists (and homphobes and people who discriminate against other faiths), their values make them shitty people who deserve to be treated shittily. Demento is claiming to be a complete moron by saying that he can't understand the difference between comparing two things and saying they're identical. Hello - virtually ALL comparisons are between things that aren't identical. He does understand this and is claiming not to in order to make his point, but if he wants to portray himself as dumber than he could possibly be then he's free to. And yes, most 13 year olds are smarter than Demento claims to be. That he's lying about his intelligence isn't Wombat's problem.
I can agree with you here, but Wombat has said things like homophobia and racism are the same team. The quote I provided was not the best example, but I felt it was one.

Your next three paragraphs continue the same thought to which I have just replied.

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And a word on how to debate - if a tactic is so bad that it makes people think you're playing devil's advocate, stop using it because tactics don't get any worse than that. You have gotten a serious ass-beating in a debate if your opponent walks away thinking you hold the opposite stance from the one you presented. That's like the Pope accidentally convincing someone to worship Satan.
But I did not say anything that would make anyone believe that I am pro-gay marriage.
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Old 11-30-2004   #184
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Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

gay marriage should never and will never be legalized. You do have the choice of your sexual orientation but thier is consequences to everything. also you can't say legalization would not increase gays that second but then it would be more accepted into society so in turn over time gays would be more in number. Also don't even get me into ethics. I know the difference between morals and ethics although they tread around the same path. O and I don't know what you think your talking about saying you don't need a man and a woman to have a baby think about it for a sec yes thier is ways around conventional sex but would it really be both yours and your partners. and in case of gay men they would be taking a baby away from a new mother. Is that ethical? O and for the record I have no problem with bi-sexuality in women but I have a spot in my past(which ended in me knocking the guy out) that can not condone male and male relations or pedophile like actions. O and I have no problem with you just with some of your beliefs because some of them are wrong
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Old 11-30-2004   #185
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Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

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Originally Said by bigsmalls
You do have the choice of your sexual orientation but thier is consequences to everything.
People don't CHOOSE to be homosexual (read all my posts on this thread for reasons why). Some people do try to act like their 'gay' for whatever reason (girls kissing other girls is apparently very attractive ) .

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O and for the record I have no problem with bi-sexuality in women but I have a spot in my past(which ended in me knocking the guy out) that can not condone male and male relations or pedophile like actions.
How can you have no problem with female/famale and have a problem with male/male? This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I'm sure you when you think of bisexual girls you think of those girls who get drunk at frat parties and start making out with other girls.

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O and I have no problem with you just with some of your beliefs because some of them are wrong
Everyone is entitled to their own belief. You have no right telling people theirs is wrong only because you think otherwise. Open your head, not everyone thinks just like you. You and your beliefs aren't always right.
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Old 11-30-2004   #186
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Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

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Originally Said by Bleed Black
It's cool, I miss stuff like that all the time.

Firstly, this entire paragraph turns from blacks being offended to them trying to justify their "homophobia." The point is, you can hide that you are a pedophile and a lesbian when you walk down the street, but they cannot hide the fact that they are black.
::points to Michael Jackson and to lots of blacks who are light enough to 'pass' for white::

Not everyone can hide being gay - some people look flaming before they even open their mouths. And the reasons it's wrong (or not, as the case may be) to discriminate against a trait don't depend on how obvious the trait is. The means by which you're distinguishing sexual orientation from race is also a difference between race and religion. People can hide being Christian even better than they can hide being gay. It's of absolutely no consequence in any civil rights debate. People can hide their membership in a certain group, therefore...what? It doesn't change the fact that anyone who opposes gay marriage opposes it out of personal dislike of gays. And I've not heard one person complain about the comparison of homophobia to racism, who wasn't using that complaint to argue against gay marriage. What law should be passed or not passed because people can hide certain group memberships? There are groups I absolutely despise (the Klan, for example), and the members can hide their membership in their groups. But that they can hide their membership doesn't lead to any conclusion in a debate over what the law should say.

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They were enslaved and there were 10x as many hate crimes against them. That is why they are offended; not because they are homophobic, but because of the difference in situations.
Most blacks I've heard expressing that opinion don't simply disagree with the comparison. They are using their disagreement to argue against gay marriage - that stance requires homophobia. That someone uses a single argument you disagree with to promote their stance doesn't therefore mean the stance hasn't been justified by other means. And the amount of discrimination one group has faced vs. another is irrelevant in a discussion of civil rights distribution. A person's innate rights are determined by their abilities to exercise them. Nothing else. Every group has faced discrimination to one degree or another, and there's no point to bringing up the amount of that discrimination in discussing who should have what rights. Doing that runs counter to the fact that a person's group membership doesn't determine their rights. If we're talking about who has what rights, and ethnicity isn't a factor in that, why are we comparing races in terms of how much crap they've faced? If a 75% of a group has faced job discrimination, the solution is the same as if it were 10% - ban the discrimination and prosecute people for it. Bragging that one's own group has faced the worst discrimination serves absolutely no purpose but self-pity (which - FUCK YES, I'LL SAY IT - is a big problem in African-American culture).

Quote:
Secondly, the highlighted quote is what I'm going to hit on. Married people get tax breaks because MOST (But not all) will have children. Most gay marriages will not have children, but some will. the majority dictates here, and so I say a homosexual marriage deserves a different tax incentive. This is why I'm pro-civil unions.
The above is a good example of a statement that doesn't argue what the user would like it to argue - if the government is going to use tax law to promote childbearing, it should give people breaks based on kids they actually have. Not their likelihood of having them - that would allow some people to get breaks for kids they don't have, while some people who did have them would get screwed. There's your own argument unavoidably leading to something I suspect you disagree with. If you have to choose between a childrearing-promotion program where people get breaks for their actual kids, or one where some childless people get breaks that some people with kids don't get, which of those meets your goal? And if you stick to the second plan, how many times will you have to rewrite tax law because the rates of heteros and gays having kids will always jump up and down?

Rights-based ethics do not allow any justification for giving people different rights other than their ability to exercise them. Even if your system can work it's unethical. We already give tax breaks for people with children married or not (which is the most efficient and parent-friendly way to do it since it focuses on actual parents rather than statistically potential ones), and I'd like you to find anything in the law which states that married people are given tax breaks for the likelihood of their having kids, rather than kids bringing direct tax credits independently of marriage status. For what it's worth, I don't think there should be such a thing as legal marriage. I think the legal means of creating new next-of-kinships should be civil unions (which anyone can use with anyone else for any purpose - not just romantic unions), and the definition of marriage should be solely private. But that's not going to happen, and whatever the law provides in the meantime it is obligated to provide fairly.

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I can agree with you here, but Wombat has said things like homophobia and racism are the same team. The quote I provided was not the best example, but I felt it was one.
I'm not sure I agree with that statement if Wombat has said it - homophobes and racists tend to come from similar backgrounds and mindsets, and are justified by the same means (hasty generalization), but there's no point in trying to draw direct links. The only link that's needed is that both are unethical regardless of how many people are both homophobes and racists.

Quote:
Your next three paragraphs continue the same thought to which I have just replied.

But I did not say anything that would make anyone believe that I am pro-gay marriage.
I know that's not the intent of the 'you said homophobia and racism are the same thing' argument, but that is the effect. It's very easy to argue a point (even a valid one) with logic that actually refutes itself, or use arguments so bad they look like you're deliberately joking. For instance, I can say that racism is unethical because if you call someone by a racial slur their head will explode. Even if you agree that racism is unethical, the argument is obviously bullshit. It's such obvious bullshit that unless I demonstrate that I'm genuinely crazy, you'll assume I'm being facetious. Because if I'm not being facetious, I sincerely believe that racial slurs make people's heads explode. Which is unlikely to the point that you can simply assume otherwise. For anyone to think that comparing two things is a statement that they are identical would require a level of stupidity that simply doesn't exist, so I'm stuck with concluding that they're joking or being extremely dishonest.

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O and for the record I have no problem with bi-sexuality in women but I have a spot in my past(which ended in me knocking the guy out) that can not condone male and male relations or pedophile like actions.
There is nothing any person can do to you that can possibly justify changing how you treat other people who didn't do the same thing. People are accountable for their OWN actions towards you - not what others like them have done. If your bad experience with one gay guy justifies disliking all gay guys, then:

1.) Women who are raped by men should therefore hate all men.
2.) If you're beaten up by a black guy you should therefore hate all black guys.
3.) If you're beaten up by a Christian, you should therefore hate all Christians.

I've met gay guys I didn't like. But if Bob is a jackass, that's not something Dan answers for simply because Dan and Bob have one thing in common. How would you feel if a gay person stated that you were a bad person because of something another straight person did to them? The only difference between your homophobia and racism is the trait by which you're lumping people together. Your logic is the same - a member of that group did something, and that member's actions reflect on the entire group. That's not true of any demographic, and the only demographic you're applying it to is gays. What's so different about gays that they are accountable for each other's actions rather than their own? To state that you evaluate an entire group based on the actions of one member is an open admission of prejudice.

You should oppose prejudice because it is arbitrary by definition and hence can be used against you without any justification at all. The statement that people are accountable for the actions of others like them is a nuclear hand grenade - you can't use it without it blowing up in your face because if it's true of gays then it's true of everyone.

The only possible connection you can be making between the gay guy you got in a fight with and a gay guy who's never done anything to you is that you want to blame the innocent guy for someone's else's actions. If violence is the problem, then prosecute people for committing violence. Not for being similar in one arbitrarily chosen way to someone who committed violence. If you can blame someone for having the same sexual orientation as a criminal, why aren't you accountable for the crimes of other straight guys? Why aren't all blacks accountable for OJ Simpson's actions? Why aren't all Japanese accountable for the attack on Pearl Harbor? Why aren't all people who listen to country music accountable for crimes committed by a single country music listener? The thing that makes it wrong to hold you accountable for another straight guy's crime also makes your own homophobia wrong - the fact that people can only be accountable for their own actions.

For what it's worth - your argument against gay marriage is invalid (and dishonest because it relies on an assumption you don't agree with), but it is the least dishonest argument I've heard too. Most people who oppose gay marriage pretend that they don't have anything against gays even though their stance requires them to.

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Old 11-30-2004   #187
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Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

To last paragraph....

Thats false. IE: I dont think marijuanna shud b legal, yet i have nothing against pot users.

I cud care less about the gay marriage topic now. Im disgusted at how you support pedophilia, and even go on to make and moderate sites about it... And ignore all topics brought up when someone calls you on it...
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Old 11-30-2004   #188
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Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

hmm, why should that effect about whether you care about the topic? her points dont become any less valid just because she does what she does.



and im not really sure how your example pertained to what she was talking about in the last paragraphs. and if anything, it just kinda proves her point. \



bigsmalls, you cannot judge all the gays and lesbians by what that one person did to you. people who commited the 9/11 attacks were muslim, right? many people have become distrustful and hateful toward america's muslisms, when it was the action of the terrorists. why blame and take it out on them when they were effected and felt as we did? the same goes for applying that to all homosexuals.



and what you said about the kids. hmm, i hope you do realize that there are not enough families willing to adopt for every single orphan in our country. why not let them go to a good family, that happens to be gay? and plus. im sorry, but that is completely ignorant to say that being raised by homosexuals will automatically make you gay. how does that explain a kid becoming homosexual, after being raised by a heterosexual couple, even though that is all they have know?
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Old 11-30-2004   #189
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Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

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Originally Said by RubberDucky55


a im sorry, but that is completely ignorant to say that being raised by homosexuals will automatically make you gay. how does that explain a kid becoming homosexual, after being raised by a heterosexual couple, even though that is all they have know?
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Old 11-30-2004   #190
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Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

because they see gay couples on tv? with that logic, shouldnt there be more straight kids, from seeing so many straight couples?
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Old 11-30-2004   #191
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Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

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Originally Said by Demento
TV
YES OF COURSE!!! TV!!!!!! why the fuck didn't I think about that?!? TV is the root of all evil, everything that happens is TV's fault......terriosm, racism, homosexuals, hell jesus being nailed to a cross......its all TV's fault!

god thats the dumbest comment you could of made demento mate...
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Old 11-30-2004   #192
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Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

Yea, i wasnt going for some well thought out essay for that post..
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Old 11-30-2004   #193
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Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

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Originally Said by Demento
Yea, i wasnt going for some well thought out essay for that post..
no shit sherlok
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Old 12-01-2004   #194
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Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

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Originally Said by RubberDucky55
because they see gay couples on tv? with that logic, shouldnt there be more straight kids, from seeing so many straight couples?
Good point! I had never seen any gay couples on tv even after I found out I was bisexual. I started watching gay shows after I realized I was gay.
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Old 12-01-2004   #195
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Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

Has anyone actually looked up the issue of tax breaks for married couples on the assumption that they'll have kids? I've always heard this, but never actually read it anywhere. If anyone could show me something reliable about the intentions of tax breaks for married couples to encourage procreation....

I know people who have children get tax breaks, but that's when they HAVE children.

Until recently, married couples were given a tax penalty for getting married:

"Marriage Tax Penalty

Issue Description

On June 7, 2001, President Bush signed into law the Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001 (H.R. 1836). H.R. 1836, now Public Law No: 107-16, amended the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 gradually reducing the marriage tax penalty by adjusting the standard deduction, the 15 percent rate bracket, and the earned income credit. The amendments made by sections 301-303 in Title III of Public Law No: 107-16 are to apply to all taxable years beginning after December 31, 2004.

This law will benefit many families by eliminating the Marriage Tax Penalty for the lower tax bracket and treating married couples equally with those who are single.

Previous IRS code taxed the incomes of married couples at a much higher rate than that of an unmarried, cohabiting couple.

According to the American Institute of Certified Public Accountants, increasing the standard deduction and rate schedule for joint filers would compensate for the 66 provisions of the existing tax code that create marriage penalties."

Hmmmm...

AND:

"The relief is temporary. In 2005, prior tax laws will be reinstated and married couples will again face several more years of bigger tax bites on their jointly filed income.

There's still a ray of tax hope for Mr. and Mrs. John Q. Public. The earlier legislation that goes back into effect calls for the marriage penalty to be gradually phased out between 2005 and 2009.

But all marriage tax relief provisions are set to expire Jan. 1, 2011. This sunset date was added by lawmakers to ensure that all the bill's tax changes, marriage penalty included, met federal budget limits."

If married couples earn roughly the same amount of money, they get hit hard.
If one spouse earns a majority of the income, the married couple gets a bonus.

Doesn't sound so simple as "give tax breaks to married couples = have kids"
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Old 12-02-2004   #196
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Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

Quote:
Originally Said by Demento
Saying a pen does the same shit as a pencil is the same fucking thing as saying you do racist things and your racist. Pull your head out. Go play with pokemon or something.
Now you've resorted to insulting me because of my age? Look, I can't help it I'm 13, you can't help it you're dumb, so let's not get on eachother's cases about it.
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Old 12-02-2004   #197
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Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

Quote:
Originally Said by Bleed Black
MudPuppet, even comparing Demento to a racist is incorrect. Think about it: gay people are not being lynched, dragged behind trucks, hung, or killed in any sort of horrific way as much as black people were in the early to mid 1900s. Just because we are opposed to them recieving rights they do not need doesn't make us racist. In fact, we are offering them other rights replacing those we don't want to give them. That's nowhere close to racism in any way shape or form.

im really curious as to what those rights might be. and actually, people do have a tendency to lash out at homosexuals. not as much at lesbians because most guys think thats cool and girls dont care enough to do anything about it. there are people at my school and everywhere else that are homosexuals and they get picked on a lot more than anyone else. and i remember watching this movie that was based on a true story about this guy that went off with these two other guys. he was homosexual and they took him off and tied him to a fence post and did horrific things to him and left him for dead.
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Old 12-02-2004   #198
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Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

That would be the Matthew Shepard story. Yes it's bad, but there's not nearly as much as there were against blacks. Holokitty even can confirm this. There are hate crimes against homosexuals, but there were many many more aginst blacks.
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Old 12-02-2004   #199
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Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

Quote:
Originally Said by latelywonderin
im really curious as to what those rights might be. and actually, people do have a tendency to lash out at homosexuals. not as much at lesbians because most guys think thats cool and girls dont care enough to do anything about it. there are people at my school and everywhere else that are homosexuals and they get picked on a lot more than anyone else. and i remember watching this movie that was based on a true story about this guy that went off with these two other guys. he was homosexual and they took him off and tied him to a fence post and did horrific things to him and left him for dead.
Maybe the right to get married? And that was a MOVIE. Movie = not real. Crazy idea huh?
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Old 12-02-2004   #200
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Re: Same Sex Marriage Debate

......what? it was a true story. dont be a jackass, when you dont know what your talking about.

and i think she was talking about the right that people want to replace marriage with for homosexuals.
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