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Old 02-05-2010   #1
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"Damning verdict on doctor who linked MMR and autism"

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18447

Quote:
Twelve years after his now discredited claim in The Lancet that injections of the MMR vaccine against measles, mumps and rubella might cause autism and bowel disorders in children, Andrew Wakefield is closer than ever to being banned from practising as a doctor.
Publication of his claims panicked parents into abandoning the shots, which had peaked in uptake at 92 per cent of UK children in 1995, falling to a trough of just 81 per cent in 2004.
A panel appointed by the UK General Medical Council – which regulates and monitors British doctors – concluded today that there's now no factual impediment to Wakefield and two of the co-authors on his paper facing charges of professional misconduct.
Professional failings

This was not about rebutting, once again, the autism claims. The panel made it clear that its report was not an exploration of whether the link existed or not. Rather, "it has concerned itself exclusively with the conduct, duties and responsibilities of each doctor", it says. In other words, it investigated the facts of whether Wakefield and his colleagues failed to uphold their professional duties to patients.
That said, the findings are damning, and look like they could spell the end for the three. Reached after 148 days of hearings spread over two-and-a-half years, they mean that Wakefield, a practitioner at the Royal Free Hospital in London when his infamous paper appeared, will learn whether he'll be struck off following hearings starting 7 April that will decide his fate. So too will two co-authors of the paper who were also at the Royal Free at the time: John Walker-Smith and Simon Murch.
Painstakingly laid out in a 143-page document, the GMC panel's findings are strewn with the words "dishonest", "irresponsible" and "misleading". The panel resurrected and upheld most, if not all, of the main charges against Wakefield, such as his undeclared conflict of interest in having filed a patent relating to treatments for bowel conditions a year before his Lancet study appeared. "The panel therefore rejects the proposition put forward by your [Wakefield's] counsel that third-party perceived conflicts of interest did not fall within the relevant definition at the time," it concludes.
The Lancet itself said in 2004 that in hindsight it shouldn't have published the paper, following publication of a retraction by 10 co-authors on the paper.


The GMC panel also affirmed irregularities in the way Wakefield recruited and managed the 12 children involved in the study.
At least four of the 12 lacked the history of gastrointestinal symptoms and so did not constitute the "routine referrals to the gastroenterology department" that had been stated in the paper. "The panel concluded that your description of the referral process as 'routine', when it was not, was irresponsible and misleading and contrary to your duty as a senior author," it says. "The panel is satisfied that your conduct in this regard was dishonest and irresponsible."
On another occasion, at his own son's birthday party in 1999, he took blood from children who were there as guests and paid them each £5 for agreeing to this. He was accused by the panel of showing "callous disregard for the distress and pain that you knew, or ought to have known, the children would suffer."
And so it goes on, for page after page. There's no doubt that a minority of parents continue to believe there was something in what Wakefield reported, despite scores of scientific studies clearing the vaccine of any link with autism. One showed that autism was still on the rise even in children who'd never received the vaccine because it had been withdrawn. Wakefield supporters outside the GMC's headquarters in London claimed he'd been made a scapegoat by the medical profession.
Nor will the findings dampen concerns in the US that thimerosal, a mercury-based preservative added to vaccines, causes autism. The US government fuelled the allegations in 2008 by agreeing compensation for some parents who claimed vaccines had damaged their children, although a US court last year ruled once again that there was no link with autism.
The fate of Wakefield will be decided in April. Meanwhile in the UK the uptake of the vaccine has recovered to 85 per cent. Not exactly the 95 per cent the government wants, but it is slowly getting there.
Quote:
On Feb. 2, that flawed study, led by gastroenterologist Dr. Andrew Wakefield, was officially retracted by the journal's editors--a serious slap and a rare move in the world of medicine. "It has become clear that several elements of the 1998 paper by Wakefield et al. are incorrect, contrary to the findings of an earlier investigation," wrote the Lancet editors in a statement issued online.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...#ixzz0einApMzR
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Old 02-05-2010   #2
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Re: " Damning verdict on doctor who linked MMR and autism"

I do agree with Jenny McCarthy in one respect: we do need to be concerned about the rise in autism and we need to start asking questions. However, to automatically kneejerk and blame it all on vaccinations is silly. There are TONS of parents who now refuse to get their kids vaccinated, which is incredibly dangerous.
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Old 02-06-2010   #3
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Re: " Damning verdict on doctor who linked MMR and autism"

What was it someone said recently about believing everything you find on the internet?

Look for hard documentation. Without that, it's bias or spin one way or the other.
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Old 02-06-2010   #4
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Re: " Damning verdict on doctor who linked MMR and autism"

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Originally Said by Jenn and tonic View Post
I do agree with Jenny McCarthy in one respect: we do need to be concerned about the rise in autism and we need to start asking questions. However, to automatically kneejerk and blame it all on vaccinations is silly. There are TONS of parents who now refuse to get their kids vaccinated, which is incredibly dangerous.
As the article said, vaccines are basically useless if not enough people are vaccinated.

The TIMES article I linked had a wonderful explanation of why parents jump to vaccines as the cause (based on timing of symptoms common to autism, ease of blame, media, etc) and debunks each of them.

What is just AMAZING to me is that the journal retracted the paper: usually there's corrections, edits, or new editions published... retracting the whole paper is unheard of and really shows just how wrong he was. Now he's being brought up on ethical charges for his biased experimentation and coercion of results.

And yet... some people cling to the idea.
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Old 02-06-2010   #5
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Re: " Damning verdict on doctor who linked MMR and autism"

Quote:
... This was not about rebutting, once again, the autism claims. The panel made it clear that its report was not an exploration of whether the link existed or not. Rather, "it has concerned itself exclusively with the conduct, duties and responsibilities of each doctor"...
There's plenty of hard documentation unlikely to be mentioned in Times magazine or most media that supports the real effects of mercury in vaccines. Think EPA, FDA, NIMH, CDC and others not to mention vaccines with mercury are banned in other countries, one which the U.S. buys vaccines with mercury from. Yet some people cling to the ideas they're comfortable with.
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Old 02-06-2010   #6
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Re: " Damning verdict on doctor who linked MMR and autism"

Hey! Are you all just ignoring my.dragons.lady or what? I've seen some of these magazines containing hard documentation that support the real effects of mercury in vaccines. I have seen these magazines, I tell you! I always look for hard information.

I was talking with my aunt today about the relationship between vaccinations and autism.

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Old 02-06-2010   #7
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Re: " Damning verdict on doctor who linked MMR and autism"

Hard documentation right here.
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Old 02-06-2010   #8
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Re: " Damning verdict on doctor who linked MMR and autism"

Unfortunately, even if every scientist on earth came out and said that it's completely ridiculous that these kind of vaccines cause autism, a significant number will still ravenously defend it, and claim that those dumb scientists are just trying to cover it up. Even if it was a "dumb scientist" that brought it to their attention in the first place. I'm afraid that this particular misconception is going to stick worse than peanut butter to the roof of your mouth, for quite some time.
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Old 02-06-2010   #9
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Re: " Damning verdict on doctor who linked MMR and autism"

As a side note, the title for this thread confused me at first, I thought it was about Doctor Who :p
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Old 02-06-2010   #10
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Re: " Damning verdict on doctor who linked MMR and autism"

I'm surprised it took so long. Scientists have been calling out Wakefield for a while now.

And, yeah, as others have noted, those who were scared by vaccines will still be scared by vaccines.

http://www.slate.com/id/2243424/pagenum/all/
Quote:
Originally Said by slate
At the recent 12-day hearing into theories that vaccines cause autism, the link between the disorder and the measles-mumps-rubella vaccine came across as shaky at best. As for the mercury-containing preservative thimerosal, which was used in other vaccines, witnesses showed that in all known cases of actual mercury poisoning (none of which caused autism), the dose was hundreds or thousands of times higher than what kids got during the 1990s. Powerful population studies showed no link to either MMR or thimerosal-containing shots.

People who study irrational beliefs have a variety of ways of explaining why we cling to them. In rational choice theory, what appear to be crazy choices are actually rational, in that they maximize an individual's benefit—or at least make him or her feel good.

Blaming vaccines can promise benefits. Victory in a lawsuit is an obvious one, especially for middle-class parents struggling to care for and educate their unruly and unresponsive kids. Another apparent benefit is the notion, espoused by a network of alternative-medical practitioners and supplement pushers, that if vaccines are the cause, the damage can be repaired, the child made whole. In the homes of autistic children it is not unusual to find cabinets filled with 40 different vitamins and supplements, along with casein-free, gluten-free foods, antibiotics, and other drugs and potions. Each is designed to fix an aspect of the "damage" that vaccines or other "toxins" caused.

"Hope is a powerful drug," says Jim Laidler, a Portland scientist and father of two autistic boys who jumped ship from the vaccine conspiracy a few years ago. In reality, autism has no cure, nor even a clearly defined cause. Science takes its time and often provides no definitive answers. That isn't medicine that's easy to swallow.

Another explanation for the refusal to face facts is what cognitive scientists call confirmation bias. Years ago, when writing an article for the Washington Post Magazine about the Tailwind affair, a screwy piece of journalism about a nonexistent attack on American POWs with sarin gas, I concluded that the story's CNN producers had become wedded to the thesis after interviewing a few unreliable sources. After that, they unconsciously discounted any facts that interfered with their juicy story. They weren't lying—except, perhaps, to themselves. They had brain blindness—confirmation bias.

Then, too, the material in discussion is highly technical and specialized, and most parents aren't truly able to determine which conclusions are reasonable. So they go with their gut, or the zeitgeist message that it makes more sense to trust the "little guy"—the maverick scientist, the alt-med practitioner—than established medicine and public health. "History tells us that a lot of ground-breaking discoveries are made by mavericks who don't follow the mainstream," says Laidler. "What is often left out is that most of the mavericks are just plain wrong. They laughed at Galileo and Edison, but they also laughed at Bozo the Clown and Don Knotts."

...
Quote:
Originally Said by Dragonrider
As a side note, the title for this thread confused me at first, I thought it was about Doctor Who :p
A Doctor Who thread would've been 80 times more awesome.
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Last edited by cstoll; 02-06-2010 at 02:12 PM.
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Old 02-06-2010   #11
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Re: " Damning verdict on doctor who linked MMR and autism"

Quote:
Originally Said by Dragonrider View Post
Unfortunately, even if every scientist on earth came out and said that it's completely ridiculous that these kind of vaccines cause autism, a significant number will still ravenously defend it, and claim that those dumb scientists are just trying to cover it up. Even if it was a "dumb scientist" that brought it to their attention in the first place. I'm afraid that this particular misconception is going to stick worse than peanut butter to the roof of your mouth, for quite some time.
That's pretty much where things are now; professionals discrediting each other so that it's hard to tell what the real deal is. It really is up to individuals to inform themselves and decide.

It's puzzling why doctors like Dr. David Ayoub and Dr. Andrew Saul who give the who, what, when and why are not at least listened to before shutting out possibilities. Especially after they've taken the time to research and submit FOIA requests to obtain hard documentation that is not readily publicly available. Only suckers fall for who speaks most often and loudest without ever considering more quiet(ed) voices. It's as if people stick their fingers in their ears and do that juvenile "la la la la la I can't hear you!" thing. Not that it isn't funny sometimes, but this isn't a joking matter.
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Old 02-06-2010   #12
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Re: " Damning verdict on doctor who linked MMR and autism"

Quote:
Originally Said by EmperorChaos View Post
Hey! Are you all just ignoring my.dragons.lady or what? I've seen some of these magazines containing hard documentation that support the real effects of mercury in vaccines. I have seen these magazines, I tell you! I always look for hard information.

I was talking with my aunt today about the relationship between vaccinations and autism.

I am a covert op for the Monsanto Corporation and am trying to silence her knowledge.
That, or I got sick of the bullshit and put her on ignore.

I see that she has replied and can only assume she's saying that my sources are part of the pro-vax conpsiracy.

Quote:
Originally Said by Dragonrider View Post
Unfortunately, even if every scientist on earth came out and said that it's completely ridiculous that these kind of vaccines cause autism, a significant number will still ravenously defend it, and claim that those dumb scientists are just trying to cover it up. Even if it was a "dumb scientist" that brought it to their attention in the first place. I'm afraid that this particular misconception is going to stick worse than peanut butter to the roof of your mouth, for quite some time.
Sigh, unfortunately you're right.

Quote:
Originally Said by Dragonrider View Post
As a side note, the title for this thread confused me at first, I thought it was about Doctor Who :p
I'm sorry, it was just the title of the article.

Quote:
Originally Said by cstoll View Post
I'm surprised it took so long. Scientists have been calling out Wakefield for a while now.

And, yeah, as others have noted, those who were scared by vaccines will still be scared by vaccines.

http://www.slate.com/id/2243424/pagenum/all/
Well, it took a long time for the official action, but it's going to take a much longer time for the masses of mothers to catch up.
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Old 02-06-2010   #13
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Re: " Damning verdict on doctor who linked MMR and autism"

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Originally Said by foxyphoenix View Post
I am a covert op for the Monsanto Corporation and am trying to silence her knowledge.
That, or I got sick of the bullshit and put her on ignore.

I see that she has replied and can only assume she's saying that my sources are part of the pro-vax conpsiracy.
Guess it's a matter of which bullshit a person is more sick of, or from.
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Old 02-07-2010   #14
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Re: "Damning verdict on doctor who linked MMR and autism"

From the editors of The Lancet, the journal that originally published Wakefield's paper:
Quote:
Following the judgment of the UK General Medical Council's Fitness to Practise Panel on Jan 28, 2010, it has become clear that several elements of the 1998 paper by Wakefield et al are incorrect, contrary to the findings of an earlier investigation. In particular, the claims in the original paper that children were “consecutively referred” and that investigations were “approved” by the local ethics committee have been proven to be false. Therefore we fully retract this paper from the published record.
Timeline from http://briandeer.com/mmr/lancet-summary.htm, which has a fantastic article on the history of this paper and the anti-vax movement.

Quote:
Expounded and exposed: the rise and fall of the MMR crisis

October 1988: MMR triple vaccine, containing attenuated live measles, mumps and rubella viruses, is launched in the United Kingdom, after successful use in America since 1971

February 1996: A solicitor, Richard Barr, hires Andrew Wakefield at £150 an hour to support a planned legal attack on MMR jab manufacturers. Not publicly disclosed

June 1996: Wakefield and Barr ask the UK Legal Aid Board for money to show a link between MMR and a "new syndrome" of autism and bowel disease. Not publicly disclosed

July 1996: First autistic child admitted to Royal Free hospital for research project. Of the 12 in the study, most are Barr and campaign contacts, and 11 will turn out to be litigants

June 1997: Wakefield files for a patent on his own supposedly “safer” single measles jab, and for miracle products to treat autism and bowel disease. Not publicly disclosed

February 1998: The Lancet publishes paper proposing link between MMR, and a "syndrome" of autism and bowel disease. Wakefield makes no disclosure of his interests

January 2001: The Daily Mail and other newspapers launch campaigns backing Wakefield after he publishes a “review” of his evidence and [repeats] calls for single vaccines

December 2001: Prime minister Tony Blair is ambushed by Wakefield supporters with allegations that his youngest son, Leo, did not have MMR. The claim turns out to be untrue

January 2003: Vaccination among two-year-olds falls to 78.9%: below the 92% needed to protect the population. Figures in parts of inner London are half the national rates

February 2004: The Sunday Times reveals Andrew Wakefield’s legal funding and the children’s litigant status. The revelations are greeted by a media firestorm and public anger

February 2004: Dr Richard Horton, editor of The Lancet, describes the original February 1998 paper as “fatally flawed” and apologises for publishing it in the journal

March 2004: Ten of the 1998 Lancet paper’s 13 authors, excluding Wakefield, retract their previous claim of possible MMR-autism link set out in its conclusions, or "interpretation"

November 2004: Brian Deer's Channel 4 investigation reveals Wakefield’s single vaccine patent claims and commercial interests, and that measles was not found in the children

March 2005: Scientists reveal that, after MMR was discontinued in Japan, the incidence of reported autism continued to rise at a similar rate to countries using the three-in-one

April 2006: The Sunday Times reports that a 13-year-old boy had become the first person in the UK in 14 years to die from measles. Meanwhile, measles outbreaks rage

July 2007: GMC opens professional misconduct case against Wakefield and two other Royal Free colleagues concerning ethical issues over the treatment of the Lancet children

February 2009: The Sunday Times reveals data fixing behind the Lancet paper. Wakefield denies research fraud and files a complaint with the UK Press Complaints Commission

February 2009: Three test case judgments for 5,000 claims are handed down in US federal court rejecting the allegation that MMR can cause autism, and lambasting Wakefield

January 2010: GMC gives devastating findings from its professional misconduct hearing for Wakefield, John Walker-Smith and Simon Murch over ethical and publication issues

February 2010: The Lancet retracts Wakefield's 1998 MMR-autism research paper. The journal's editor describes aspects of it as "utterly false", and said he "felt deceived"
Fudging results for a lawsuit and a patent. Fantastic.
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Old 02-08-2010   #15
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Re: " Damning verdict on doctor who linked MMR and autism"

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Originally Said by my.dragons.lady View Post
Guess it's a matter of which bullshit a person is more sick of, or from.
I know. The moderators on this site are terrible!
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Old 02-09-2010   #16
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Re: "Damning verdict on doctor who linked MMR and autism"

Apparently David Ayoub might be the next Wakefield.

But Ayoub has the "Global Vaccine Agenda" instead of a study. He's elevating the controversy into a global plot to control population. I hope this really doesn't become the next step in the "vaccine" story, but I think it may just be limited to the "conspiracy" crowd. (Or the anti-vax crowd will only pay attention to the first part of his speech and ignore the rest).
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...6663412840646#

He's a radiologist, and he is a "self-taught expert" on vaccines and autism. Nothing terribly wrong with that, but...

It's a long video, so I'm not going to go through every part of it, but his logic and thought process with the evidence for the "global vaccine agenda" does not make me trust him when he's talking about the science behind autism and vaccines.

So, first he sets out the dangers of vaccines with mercury, which he then links to abortion, which he then links to a global plan to curb population growth.

Jump to around 51:50. It's right after he talks about vaccines being tied to abortions.

Quote:
Originally Said by Ayoub
"So, yeah, Thimerosal is a candidate. But is there a policy? Does the United States have a policy on population control? And this is where the story gets really, really strange."
He turns to the Rockefeller Report (a govt-appointed report on population growth) and, as typical of conspiracy-style thinking, focuses on a "key passage" that he interprets as malicious intent.

Quote:
Originally Said by Ayoub
Rockefeller in March of 1972 was appointed by Nixon to study population growth and to see its effects for the future. Here's what Rockefeller said to Nixon:
By its very nature population growth is a continuing concern and should receive continuing attention. Later generations, and later commissions, will be able to see the right path further into the future. In any case, no generation needs to know the ultimate goal or the final means, only the direction in which they will be found.
That bold quote from the Rockefeller Report comes after Ayoub reads a bit from the report and then says, "blah, blah, blah, key statement" to get to what he sees as deception--the "no generation needs to know" part.

Quote:
Originally Said by Ayoub
"So we have a pretty high-level document in America saying that we have population problems, we need to do something about it, and you don't have to tell the American people."
He doesn't read the rest of the Report which has statements about "respect for human freedom, human dignity, and individual fulfillment; and concern for social justice and social welfare." It even includes moments of dissenting opinions from some of the Report's authors. It includes concerns about legalized abortion being used too often.

If he were to read his "key statement" in context, it would not take on its deceptive tone. What that passage is saying is that this will be an ongoing problem, and no one can ever know or find a "final means." People in the future will have their own specific set of issues with population growth, and they will have to determine the "right path" at that time. The Report urges again and again the issue of context and specific historical situations.

Ayoub blows right by all that to read a deceptive "hint" at a government conspiracy.

He also seems unaware that many governments, scientists, and think tanks were concerned about overpopulation in the 1970s. That concern wasn't hidden from the public, and much of it turned out to be wrong (Paul Ehrlich's book "The Population Bomb" being most notable).

53:00 Part Two of the conspiracy...

Quote:
Originally Said by Ayoub
"This is key document #2. And you know what, this is probably...I still shake my head at this...this is probably the most notorious document in the history of the United States."
It's the 1974 NSSM 200 (National Security Study Memo). It points out how population growth in poor countries could lead to civil unrest, etc.

He makes ties between this 1974 memo and the modern workings of GAVI, the Global Alliance of Vaccination and Immunization (a group of organizations that include UNICEF and the World Health Organization and the Bill Gates Foundation).

He compares the lists of nations receiving vaccines from GAVI and listed in the NSSM as nations that should reduce growth.

And then Ayoub puts on his conspiratorial cap and says,
Quote:
Originally Said by Ayoub
"This GAVI list reminds me of another list, the list the NSSM 200 memo listed 30 years ago to control population growth. Same thing. Maybe a wild coincidence. After all, both GAVI and NSSM seem to have different goals: NSSM wants to limit growth, GAVI wants to extend life and promote growth. Or so it would seem. Let's take a closer look."
Excellent! Don't trust your gut that it's a wild coincidence. Or don't think logically about the fact that many of the places that were poor and lacking health care 30 years ago are still poor and lacking in health care. No, look for the global conspiracy.

Around 54:00, he realizes that the NSSM's plan doesn't make sense with his "Global Vaccine Agenda" theory. The NSSM urges to develop better fertility control methods in developed countries first and then export them to less-developed countries years later. So, he looks for an explanation that WILL make their plan make sense. And his explanation makes no sense:

Quote:
Originally Said by Ayoub
"My interpretation NOW, knowing what I'm going to tell you next, is that they wanted to work at home base, work at a place where they had control. Rather than go to a foreign land and figure out how to instill propaganda. They wanted to start on their own territory where they control the media and control the health care system. That was probably what they were thinking."
Around 55:00, Ayoub wonders whether social movements such as women's equality, sex education, day care, social security were not merely social issues. He sees these listed in the document as suggestions for how to curb population growth and to deal with the population, which makes sense. But he wonders if they were caused by the government, ignoring a longer history of women's equality and sex education.

Seriously, he wonders if the conspiracy is this big:

Quote:
Originally Said by Ayoub
"These were social issues we faced for the past 50 years. Did they come out of this document? They weren't really social issues? They were government issues under the guise of social movements? It seems like that's plausible."
The lack of critical thinking there is stunning. As if that weren't enough, cue the black helicopters that governments use to intimidate people.

At 56:46, he brings in another author writing about this "Global Vaccine Agenda." This author published a paper about it, and then she had "black helicopters flying over her house for three weeks. She really triggered something when she stepped into this international arena."

Around 1:00:00, comparing the memo from 1974 to current nations helped by GAVI.

Quote:
Originally Said by Ayoub
"NSSM wanted to really limit growth in Nigeria. So, it doesn't surprise me that GAVI has received a lot of money to vaccinate Nigeria.
Let's look at the lists: for NSSM, these countries are 'targets.' For GAVI, they're 'recipients.' They're not identical lists, but they're similar."
And that's apparently all you need to play "Conspiracy Trivial Pursuit," which would actually be a cool game. As would "Clue Conspiracy!" ("It was Colonel Mustard in the Kitchen with the Grassy Knoll Gunman and the Loch Ness Monster.")

Around 1:02:00, still reading the NSSM document and its plans to help curb population growth.
Quote:
Originally Said by Ayoub
"They realized they didn't have the right stuff. They needed to do research. Until then, they would just use the regular methods: birth control, rhythm method--but this part just jumped off the page; this is from NSSM, 25-30 years ago--Injectable contraceptives which are effective for three months or more. Hmm. That didn't exist back then. Sounds like a vaccine. Potentially."
Hmm. Sounds like you see vaccines everywhere.

1:02:50, where he ties Bill Gates into it, mainly by painting Gates as "pro-abortion." And then he brings in--wait for it--occult numerology...

Quote:
Originally Said by Ayoub
"These GAVI partners. What are their backgrounds? Are they the NSSM folks? So, this is really about GAVI now. They're really on my radar now. One of the GAVI partners is Bill Gates. He has donated billions of dollars to abortion. This jumps off the page. $2.2 billion to UN Population Fund on 2/11/99. That's 2/11/99. I don't know if you follow occult numerology, but I've been seeing that every day. It's everywhere. So, Gates has donated a lot. For a man who seems to improve health, he doesn't seem to respect life."
Occult numerology? Really?

He then continues drawing Gates into it, one piece of evidence from "an e-mail I just received last week" that says that Gates has given a million dollars to a group in India that acts as a labor union for prostitutes and that "prevented the rescue of minors from brothels."

1:05:55, tying the Rockefeller Foundation and Gates together

Quote:
Originally Said by Ayoub
"There's one player missing from GAVI, wasn't listed on the vaccine fund, but was implied in the journalism piece I read. The Rockefeller Foundation is a member of GAVI. Here's an article where Gates says that we take our lead and our inspiration from Rockefeller Foundation...It seems like every new corner we turn, the Rockefellers are already there and have been there a long, long time. Hmm."
That's it. A quote that could be interpreted in many ways. Ayoub just says it and adds a knowing "Hmm" at the end.
He doesn't think about the fact that the Rockefellers have done many things with many social effects (as insanely wealthy families sometimes do) and that the Gates Foundation might want to emulate any number of those things. Nope, it must be about population control.

1:06:00, noting that the scientist who added mercury to vaccines started with the Rockefeller Foundation:

Quote:
Originally Said by Ayoub
"What I found when I was Googling was that [the scientist's] records were stored with the Rockefeller archives. He's a Rockefeller scientist. Isn't it interesting that the Rockefellers, who are now funding vaccine programs, who wrote the Rockefeller Commission Report, were basically involved with the research that introduced mercury into vaccines? ... A lot of coincidences."
It's hard to keep up with the "coincidences" that he keeps spotting...

1:07:40

He quotes this from the Rockefeller website: "In 1911, Peytoun Rous, a scientist at the Rockefeller Institute, discovered that a virus can cause cancer. His discovery earned him the Nobel Prize in 1966."

He notes that 1911 "is an interesting year," and says the same about 1966, but doesn't say why. More numerology, maybe?
But his point of bringing up Rous and his discovery is this:

Quote:
Originally Said by Ayoub
"We have SD40 and polio vaccine contamination issues. Who was the first scientist to discover that viruses can cause cancer? A Rockefeller scientist."
So, he's implying all kinds of nefarious "contamination" schemes.

And it goes on and on...[My quotes aren't exact, which is why I supplied timecodes near the quotes.]

Black helicopters. Occult numerology. A global plan that has been in the making for at least 30 years, involving dozens of organizations and thousands of people. Bill Gates as a pro-abortion humanitarian.

That's Ayoub's brand of thinking. Ugh.

No one will read all that, and I almost didn't post it. But one of my relatives sent the video in a mass e-mail...sigh.
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Old 02-10-2010   #17
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Re: "Damning verdict on doctor who linked MMR and autism"

^ Did you view any of the hard documentation that supported Ayoub? Specifically that obtained via FOIA requests? It is available and weighs more than personal opinion.
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Old 02-10-2010   #18
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Re: "Damning verdict on doctor who linked MMR and autism"

This kind of "bad science" reminds me a lot of the whole Facilitated Communication mess that supposedly allowed autistic individuals to communicate. It was believed for several years until someone finally decided to scientifically and experimentally test it, only to find absolutely no evidence that it represented the thoughts of the autistic individuals. While this happened years ago, some mothers and even an institute are adamant that it solves all of their communication problems with their children. I know that the Facilitated Communication uproar was an issue of pseudoscience and this is just bad science, but the hype surrounding it reminded me of the Facilitated Communication hype. Once it was disproved, many centers for autism had to completely change how their classes were run, fire their facilitators, and ditch their "new and improved programs." Now these scientists need to ditch their "new and improved hypothesis" and work on more legit science.
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Old 02-10-2010   #19
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Re: "Damning verdict on doctor who linked MMR and autism"

The 'bad science' specific to this topic goes to unprofessional methods the doctor in question applied. There's always going to be someone who justifies the means to the end. Happens every day in any profession including conventional medicine. That does not imply the entire profession is a waste or that anyone involved in it is equally discredited. That would be throwing the baby out with the bath water.
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Old 02-14-2010   #20
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Re: "Damning verdict on doctor who linked MMR and autism"

Quote:
Originally Said by my.dragons.lady View Post
^ Did you view any of the hard documentation that supported Ayoub? Specifically that obtained via FOIA requests? It is available and weighs more than personal opinion.
Most of Ayoub's presentation does not involve the FOIA documents.

The FOIA documents are about the "secret meeting" and only make up a small part of Ayoub's presentation. When he does refer to those documents, he summarizes and gives *his interpretation* of the events. He's summarizing and taking a few quotes from a nearly 200-page document. When he does give actual quotations from the meeting, they are vague and out of context.

When they aren't vague and out of context, they don't have that "smoking gun" smell that he wants them to have. One of the more specific quotes comes from a doctor who has a "gut feeling" about the data.

Watch it again, keeping in mind Ayoub's tendency (as I showed in my above post) to read and make connections with a "conspiratorial" mindset.

That meeting he's talking about is old news. Robert Kennedy Jr. wrote about it years ago, did his own selective quoting, and was called out by numerous people about his misrepresentations. Ayoub seems to repeat a lot of Kennedy's claims.

I'm not going to bother repeating the hard work done by others...

http://www.salon.com/news/letters/20...sal/index.html
http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2...amn_lies_.html
http://autismnaturalvariation.blogsp...al-gambit.html
http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2..._f_kenned.html
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/20...jr_gets_hi.php
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=14
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