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Old 02-19-2004   #1
Deuxmakina
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Jesus: The Messiah or just another liar...

What about Jesus, was He another false prophet or was He the real deal?
Did He really died the way it is described in The Bible or is it just
another fable?
Is He the son of God?, or is he just another well intentioned person like
Gandhi, Mahoma, Buda, Confucio or any other wise man.
Did He had to die in a cross for our sins?
Was He turned into a pulp of bloody flesh just because He tought He was right?
Or because He wanted to save you.

Do you think that a man has to return to the womb of his mother to reborn?
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Old 02-19-2004   #2
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Re: Jesus: The Messiah or just another liar...

its a great thing to do to try and save you.

but no one lived then. who's to say No. or Why not?
this is really though something i dont want touch. just because.
that's all i'll say.
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Old 02-19-2004   #3
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Re: Jesus: The Messiah or just another liar...

im not sure...if there really is something in the end...i think its just based on how you acted...not whether you put your faith into a certain god or religion or person, but really how you followed the golden rule. i dont think any god would punish people for growing up in a religion, and not getting the chance to experience any other kind. so, i dont think jesus really truly determines whether we go to heaven.



(!!i hope i dont burn in hell for saying that!!)
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Old 02-19-2004   #4
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Re: Jesus: The Messiah or just another liar...

I believe he was the real deal. However, I can understand how Jews do not (Jesus certainly doesn't fulfill the Old Testament prophecies). And I can understand how many other people don't believe.

I've been on the atheist side, but now I'm back in the believing camp. I can't really explain why--part of it has to do with my being a contrarian (when a lot of people start saying one thing, I tend to go in the opposite direction), and part of it has to do with the belief being comforting.

If other religious threads are any indicator, this will probably get messy. Maybe not, though, since it's a more specific topic.
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Old 02-19-2004   #5
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Re: Jesus: The Messiah or just another liar...

Quote:
Originally Said by cstoll
If other religious threads are any indicator, this will probably get messy. Maybe not, though, since it's a more specific topic.
ya, people should try to stay on topic this time.

(so im a hypocrit, what else is new)
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Old 02-19-2004   #6
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Re: Jesus: The Messiah or just another liar...

i think i have made myself clear that i am a believer. i would argue that if there is no god and higher purpose then we aren't here for any reason and that makes no sense to me. too many things fit together for this all to be a big coincidence. and i am not contained to my specific nook of religion. i believe there are people not in my religion that have or have had divine words to write.
but i do believe we all have an inherant view of what's write or wrong and i think a lot of us ignore that. I think when you don't do what you feel to be right in your heart is what we will all be judged on. as for christ, i can't really say why i believe. maybe i have been conditioned from a young age and maybe the religious choice i have taken is a great choice from stand points that aren't even religious. there are a lot of values tossed out the window and a lot of values that are currently in swing for tossing and religion and christ helps put values back in my life.
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Old 02-19-2004   #7
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Re: Jesus: The Messiah or just another liar...

Quote:
Originally Said by Deuxmakina
What about Jesus, was He another false prophet or was He the real deal?
Propet of what, exactly? I don't believe in the Judeo-Christian god, so I don't know if I can properly answer this.


Quote:
Did He really died the way it is described in The Bible or is it just
another fable?
IIRC, the crucifixion was real.. whether I believe it is is irrelevant. It either happened or did not.


Quote:
Is He the son of God?, or is he just another well intentioned person like Gandhi, Mahoma, Buda, Confucio or any other wise man.
No, and yes, respectively.


Quote:
Did He had to die in a cross for our sins?
Don't believe in sin, so no.


Quote:
Was He turned into a pulp of bloody flesh just because He tought He was right? Or because He wanted to save you.
I cannot, in good conscience, believe someone lived 2000 years ago to save me from for a lying, cheating, stealing, murderous god that I don't believe in, and have yet to have any reason to believe in.


Quote:
Do you think that a man has to return to the womb of his mother to reborn?
I think rebirth can be subjective. In a literal sense, yes, but in idiomatic terms, of course not.
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Last edited by verilon; 02-19-2004 at 05:02 AM.
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Old 02-19-2004   #8
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Re: Jesus: The Messiah or just another liar...

Quote:
Originally Said by Deuxmakina
What about Jesus, was He another false prophet or was He the real deal?
That's a matter of opinion. I don't think he was a false prophet; he was, indeed, a prophet and I doubt he himself believed there was anything false about what he said. Either he was really crazy, a prophet or the Son of God.

Quote:
Originally Said by Deuxmakina
Did He really died the way it is described in The Bible or is it just another fable?
This point has been argued by skeptics and critics. It's possible that he didn't return from the dead but it's very likely that he was, indeed, crucified. In fact, I don't see any reason to believe otherwise - crucifixion(sp?) was a very popular form of carrying out the death sentence back there.
As far as the being risen part, very few people saw Jesus after he was claimed as 'risen'. It's possible that some of his desperate followers stole the body from the tomb - a lot of skeptics believe that - and a sparse few of them claimed to see him alive and well. And though the portrayal of Him returning to heaven is often shown with lots of people watching, according to the Bible very few people actually saw the ascension.

Quote:
Originally Said by Deuxmakina
Is He the son of God?, or is he just another well intentioned person like Gandhi, Mahoma, Buda, Confucio or any other wise man.
Did He had to die in a cross for our sins?
Was He turned into a pulp of bloody flesh just because He tought He was right?
Or because He wanted to save you.

Do you think that a man has to return to the womb of his mother to reborn?
It all depends on what you believe. Christians will tell you yes, he was the son of God. I will tell you he was, at the very least, a well-intentioned prophet who had the right idea. (To quote the Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy, he was 'nailed to a tree just for saying how great of an idea it would be to be nice to everyone'.) He was turned into a bloody pulp because people are ASSHOLES. People have always been assholes and they like to prosecute someone who thinks differently from them.
As far as the womb thing... no, I don't believe that. To be 'reborn' is to be changed. To turn over a new leaf, etc.

Also, not commenting on anything else, back then to be a virgin was to be unmarried, unless you were an adulteress. Mary was not, and she wouldn't want to admit to being one. So.
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Old 02-19-2004   #9
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Re: Jesus: The Messiah or just another liar...

Quote:
Originally Said by Deuxmakina
What about Jesus, was He another false prophet or was He the real deal?
Did He really died the way it is described in The Bible or is it just
another fable?
Is He the son of God?, or is he just another well intentioned person like
Gandhi, Mahoma, Buda, Confucio or any other wise man.
Did He had to die in a cross for our sins?
Was He turned into a pulp of bloody flesh just because He tought He was right?
Or because He wanted to save you.

Do you think that a man has to return to the womb of his mother to reborn?
I think he was the real deal.

Definetley think it was real.

Yep and no, respectively.

Yes.

Because he wanted to save us. There is evidence to show that his beating was so horrible that no man could have lived through it. The answer? It was the spirit of God the willed him to live because he had to die on the cross for us.

Cstoll, what old testament prohecies does Jesus not fufill?

[QUOTE=verilon]
I cannot, in good conscience, believe someone lived 2000 years ago to save me from for a lying, cheating, stealing, murderous god that I don't believe in, and have yet to have any reason to believe in.
[/QUOTE]

How is my God lying cheating stealing or muderous?
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Old 02-19-2004   #10
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Re: Jesus: The Messiah or just another liar...

Quote:
How is my God lying cheating stealing or muderous?
In that he does not have to abide by the same commandments that he gave Moses.
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Old 02-19-2004   #11
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Re: Jesus: The Messiah or just another liar...

Quote:
Originally Said by Bleed Black
Cstoll, what old testament prohecies does Jesus not fufill?
Understand that I don't necessarily agree with this. For one thing, I read the Bible liberally, not literally. Second, I believe he was the real deal. I'm just saying that I understand why Jews would think this.

For anyone who's interested, I found this decent site: http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation03.html

Some of the prophecies involved imply that the Messiah would have children, live a long life, would bring peace (whereas Jesus states "Don’t think that I came to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.").

The prophecies not fulfilled by Jesus are often explained by the reply "That will all happen at the Second Coming." This isn't satisfactory to Jews for a number of reasons, some of them being the contradictions that occur within the New Testament (not only those contradictions that would change Judaism, but contradictions between the Gospel writers as well).

And Verilon: Have you ever read Bruce Bawer? If not, I think you might like his writing.
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Old 02-19-2004   #12
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Re: Jesus: The Messiah or just another liar...

Quote:
Originally Said by cstoll
And Verilon: Have you ever read Bruce Bawer? If not, I think you might like his writing.
Never heard of him.
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Old 02-20-2004   #13
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Re: Jesus: The Messiah or just another liar...

Quote:
Originally Said by cstoll
Understand that I don't necessarily agree with this. For one thing, I read the Bible liberally, not literally. Second, I believe he was the real deal. I'm just saying that I understand why Jews would think this.

For anyone who's interested, I found this decent site: http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation03.html

Some of the prophecies involved imply that the Messiah would have children, live a long life, would bring peace (whereas Jesus states "Don’t think that I came to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.").

The prophecies not fulfilled by Jesus are often explained by the reply "That will all happen at the Second Coming." This isn't satisfactory to Jews for a number of reasons, some of them being the contradictions that occur within the New Testament (not only those contradictions that would change Judaism, but contradictions between the Gospel writers as well).

And Verilon: Have you ever read Bruce Bawer? If not, I think you might like his writing.
Could you maybe give me specific verses?

Quote:
Originally Said by verilon
In that he does not have to abide by the same commandments that he gave Moses.
Would you tell me the one that stands out the most to you?
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Old 02-20-2004   #14
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Re: Jesus: The Messiah or just another liar...

Quote:
Originally Said by Bleed Black
Could you maybe give me specific verses?
Of why Jews believe Jesus didn't fulfill Old Testament prophecies? That webpage does a decent job. Here are a few excerpts from it:
  1. The Messiah is preceded by Elijah the prophet who, with the Messiah, unifies the family (Malachi 4:5-6), which is contradicted by Jesus in Matthew 10:34-37.
  2. The Messiah re-establishes the Davidic dynasty through the messiah's own children (Daniel 7:13-14). But Jesus had no children.
  3. The Messiah brings an eternal peace between all nations, between all peoples, and between all people (Isaiah 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-4; Ezekiel 39:9). Obviously there is no peace. Furthermore, Jesus said that his purpose in coming was to bring a sword, and not peace (see Matthew 10:34.)
And the contradicitons between Gospel writers merely illustrate that men wrote them...that they supplied different versions of Jesus' story.
Just one example:
Mark makes Jesus a carpenter. Matthew states that Jesus was the son of a carpenter. Mark surrounds Jesus in mystery. He has Jesus explain that his parables are meant to confuse the people about his teachings. He also tells his followers not to tell others of his miracles or even himself (1:24; 1:34; 1:44; 3:12; 5:43; 8:30 and others as well).
Matthew makes more sense, having Jesus explain that the parables help elucidate his teachings.
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Old 02-20-2004   #15
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Re: Jesus: The Messiah or just another liar...

Being an atheist, I reckon that yes the man existed, and that he was indeed along the lines of Ghandi, etc. I really don't buy into any God or deity creating us... I believe we are a chance occurance. Random combination of chemicals. That is all.

Our purpose?

Do we need one? Really?

Maybe... I think our purpose could be this; really simple:

JUST LIVE.

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Old 02-20-2004   #16
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Re: Jesus: The Messiah or just another liar...

Quote:
Originally Said by Bleed Black
Would you tell me the one that stands out the most to you?
The first that comes to mind is, "Thou shalt not kill."

And di you know Jesus broke the commandment "Thou shalt honor thy father and thy mother" when he stayed at the temple against his parents' wishes?
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Old 02-25-2004   #17
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Re: Jesus: The Messiah or just another liar...

You see the same rules do not apply to God. For example, our rules of science say that nobody can create matter out of nothing. But God can.
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Old 02-25-2004   #18
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Re: Jesus: The Messiah or just another liar...

Quote:
Originally Said by Bleed Black
You see the same rules do not apply to God.
Why? Why is it that God can kill but we cannot? He can lie, but we cannot? He can dishonor his parents, but we cannot?
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Old 02-25-2004   #19
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Re: Jesus: The Messiah or just another liar...

I don't have hard time buying why God is allowed to kill and we are not, but I do have a hard time buying why God seems so bloodthirsty in the Bible.

Numbers 31:
Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."
This was an order to Moses to "take vengeance" on the Midianites. Moses took vengeance with over 12,000 soldiers. The Israelites killed all the men, burned the towns and camps and took all the women and children as prisoners.

It seems hard for me to resolve the contradictory images of God presented in the Bible. For instance, a simple question like "Can God change his mind?" cannot be resolved:
He doesnt:
Mal. 3:6. For I am the Lord; I change not. Num. 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent. (Ezek. 24:14; James 1:17)
He does:
Ex. 32:14. And the Lord repented of the evil which he had thought to do unto his people. (Gen. 6:6; Jonah 3:10; Sam. 2:30-31; II Kings 20:1-6; Num. 16:20-35)


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Old 02-26-2004   #20
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Re: Jesus: The Messiah or just another liar...

Quote:
Originally Said by cstoll
I don't have hard time buying why God is allowed to kill and we are not, but I do have a hard time buying why God seems so bloodthirsty in the Bible.
Forgive me, but if he's all-loving as he says he supposedly is, then why does he kill in the first place? Why does he condemn when he tells us to love each other as we would ourselves? How can he be all-powerful if he cannot lie? These are the things I ponder when I debate Christianity.. Furthermore, what makes it uniquely legitimate among religions and the lack thereof?

Quote:
Numbers 31:
"Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."
This was an order to Moses to "take vengeance" on the Midianites. Moses took vengeance with over 12,000 soldiers. The Israelites killed all the men, burned the towns and camps and took all the women and children as prisoners.
He also ordered Abraham to kill Isaac.

Quote:
It seems hard for me to resolve the contradictory images of God presented in the Bible. For instance, a simple question like "Can God change his mind?" cannot be resolved:
He doesnt:
Mal. 3:6. For I am the Lord; I change not. Num. 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent. (Ezek. 24:14; James 1:17)
He does:
Ex. 32:14. And the Lord repented of the evil which he had thought to do unto his people. (Gen. 6:6; Jonah 3:10; Sam. 2:30-31; II Kings 20:1-6; Num. 16:20-35)
If I remember right, there is a point in Hezekiah in which he states that Hezekiah would die, and then he states that he would not..
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