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Old 11-03-2010   #1
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Will Things Now Move In The Right Direction???

Why should anybody feel any sympathy for these Democratic members going home? The American people fired them, because they worked on other issues and stood by while these same Americans still can't find jobs. As bad as these Dems feel, they’re in a lot better shape than the people they let down.
15%+ real unemployment and they pass the 700b+ stimulus, and think it’s going to be smooth sailing? :-/

So now things appear to be more balanced out in the political arena, but will it make a difference for the better?
Well, typically the business of most of the Dems is to go on making mistakes. The business of most of the Repubs is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. They both usually do what the Corporatocracy tells them to do, so we shall see...
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Old 11-03-2010   #2
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Re: Will Things Now Move In The Right Direction???

To answer the question posited in the thread title, no.
Because they never do...

However, I did send a black man to Washington for the second time! First being Obama, a mistake I made two years ago (not that it mattered in SC) and the second being Tim Scott, a Republican SC Congressman, now on his way to the House where he'll represent my state's First Congressional District.
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Last edited by EmperorChaos; 11-03-2010 at 10:34 PM.
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Old 11-04-2010   #3
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Re: Will Things Now Move In The Right Direction???

It depends. So far the strategy from the White House seems to be "double down, the plebs are just too stupid/impatient to get it," which won't take them all that far.
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Old 11-04-2010   #4
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Re: Will Things Now Move In The Right Direction???

Well, it looks like it won't matter. Coincidentally, the Federal Reserve waited until right after the elections were over to announce that they are printing $600 billion dollars to "stimulate" the economy. More than likely it will be a short-term fix, if that, and in 2 years from now we'll be experiencing hyperinflation because of it...

http://www.sfexaminer.com/nation/fed...106618108.html

http://hallingblog.com/2010/10/17/qe...per-inflation/

It obviously doesn't matter who's in office, these banking elites do whatever the hell they want to, and obviously don't have to answer to anybody. Whoever controls the money supply, controls the people.
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Old 11-04-2010   #5
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Re: Will Things Now Move In The Right Direction???

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Originally Said by Funk*Sonic*7 View Post
Whoever controls the money supply, controls the people.
That line right there.... really sounds like MDL. Are you sure you're funksonic? If so, are you sure you're okay?

-=-=-

But alas, you're probably right.

And then six or seven years ago I imagined there would be during this time a "Green War" with the USD competing fiercely with the Euro. That won't be the case with so much inflation.
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Old 11-04-2010   #6
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Re: Will Things Now Move In The Right Direction???

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Originally Said by EmperorChaos View Post
That line right there.... really sounds like MDL. Are you sure you're funksonic? If so, are you sure you're okay?

-=-=-

But alas, you're probably right.

And then six or seven years ago I imagined there would be during this time a "Green War" with the USD competing fiercely with the Euro.
That won't be the case with so much inflation.
They are trying to develop a currency for Canada, America and Mexico combined...national sovereignty will be a thing of the past if the elites have their way.
If the new seated Republicans are true Constitutional-based fiscal conservatives, then maybe something positive will come out of this new election.
However, if these are the same GOP Neocons (who also essentially embrace far-left ideologies and are socialists), then it will be business as usual.

And as far as my comment...

http://www.metafilter.com/85567/He-w...James-Garfield
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Old 11-04-2010   #7
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Re: Will Things Now Move In The Right Direction???

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Originally Said by Funk*Sonic*7 View Post
Well, it looks like it won't matter. Coincidentally, the Federal Reserve waited until right after the elections were over to announce that they are printing $600 billion dollars to "stimulate" the economy. More than likely it will be a short-term fix, if that, and in 2 years from now we'll be experiencing hyperinflation because of it...

http://www.sfexaminer.com/nation/fed...106618108.html

http://hallingblog.com/2010/10/17/qe...per-inflation/

It obviously doesn't matter who's in office, these banking elites do whatever the hell they want to, and obviously don't have to answer to anybody. Whoever controls the money supply, controls the people.
The Federal Reserve has been on wild excess mode for the last two years and we are verging on deflation, which would crumple the economy into a tiny wad and then light it on fire. So the theory that the Fed expanding the money supply will cause hyperinflation is running low on merit, because they have been, almost continually, for an entire decade, and there's been no sign of hyperinflation.

And anyway it's more of a loan to the government, or even maybe an investment in the government, than simply printing out bills. So that $600bn (plus 3% or whatever the yield on Treasurys is right now) will go back in to the Fed's bank account in ten years.
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Old 11-04-2010   #8
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Re: Will Things Now Move In The Right Direction???

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To answer the question posited in the thread title, no.
Because they never do...

However, I did send a black man to Washington for the second time! First being Obama, a mistake I made two years ago (not that it mattered in SC) and the second being Tim Scott, a Republican SC Congressman, now on his way to the House where he'll represent my state's First Congressional District.
You think your vote was a mistake? Do tell.
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Old 11-05-2010   #9
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Re: Will Things Now Move In The Right Direction???

Bad president is bad?

Maybe if he does some good within the next two years, I'll change my mind.
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Old 11-05-2010   #10
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Re: Will Things Now Move In The Right Direction???

He definitely talks a good game, but his actions are completely a different story.
All these appointed czars needs to go.
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Old 11-05-2010   #11
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Re: Will Things Now Move In The Right Direction???

Obama can be rather smarmy at times.
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Old 11-05-2010   #12
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Re: Will Things Now Move In The Right Direction???

I'm getting annoyed by the whole "oh my god, our savior/change promiser isn't what he claimed to be!" No shit, he's a politician. Don't act like this isn't something that happens every year. Id still pick Obama over McCain.
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Old 11-05-2010   #13
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Re: Will Things Now Move In The Right Direction???

"Survivalism will go mainstream. Unemployed or fearing it, foreclosed or nearing it, pensions lost and savings gone, all sorts of folk who once believed in the system have lost their faith. Motivated not by worst-case scenario fears, but by do-or-die necessity, the new non-believers, unwilling to go under or live on the streets, will devise ingenious stratagems to beat the system, get off the grid (as much as possible), and stay under the radar." - Gerald Celente
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Old 11-05-2010   #14
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Re: Will Things Now Move In The Right Direction???

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I'm getting annoyed by the whole "oh my god, our savior/change promiser isn't what he claimed to be!" No shit, he's a politician. Don't act like this isn't something that happens every year. Id still pick Obama over McCain.
If I had to do it all over again, instead of leaving that part blank on the ballot I'd've voted for McCain. I would take McCain over and over again over Obama....and that's saying something, because I hate McCain.
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Old 11-07-2010   #15
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Re: Will Things Now Move In The Right Direction???

I'm thinking in 2012 a Ron Paul/Allen West ticket should be considered
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Old 11-09-2010   #16
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Re: Will Things Now Move In The Right Direction???

Here's my perspective, for what it's worth (looking in from the UK):

Obama was put in power on a wave of popular anger against the Bush regime. He promised change, in both domestic and foreign policy. He has utterly failed to deliver. The healthcare reforms were utterly meaningless, mainly because he allowed them to be watered down beyond recognition due to an insistance on compromise with the Republicans and the frankly rediculous "anti-socialist" propaganda put out by their friends at Fox News. (I remember one item where they claimed that Stephen Hawking would have died if he had relied upon the NHS for care, which forced Hawking to point out that he DID rely on the NHS for treatment and was adamant that it saved his life!) Foreign policy has failed to change noticably - still in Afghanistan, still supporting the Israeli occupation of the Gaza and the West Bank. Essentially he promised change and failed to deliver. The consequences of this have been to push people away from progressive politics - if Obama is essentially the same as Bush (albeit a watered down, velvet glove version) then it follows to those whose knowledge of the left is limited that all progressive politics are bankrupt. This is why someone I used to regularly communicate with on the net has gone from an Obama sycophant, to the left of the actual Democrats, to a Tea Party follower whose views are becoming more and more detatched from reality, to the extent that he is now parroting antisemitic conspiracy theories that could have been lifted directly from the Protocols. This is why we no longer communicate. (I do not mean to say everyone has followed this path but it does seem to illustrate a trend that is becoming harder to miss).

The question of whether it will go in the "right" direction is purely subjective. If you think that scapegoating immigrants, people on welfare and gays for the criminal actions of banks and multinational corporations is the "right" way to go, along with removing all social protection and the separation of church and state then your lucky day is soon to come.

If, on the other hand, you would like to see the people responsible being brought to account and made to pay then you're all out of luck. The Tea Party's combination of populist authoritarianism and economic ultra-liberalism is a dangerous concoction. It will combine the massive economic inequality that has been the hallmark of unrestricted capitalism throughout history, with a narrative that ensures people do not revolt against it. Instead of blaming the system, which is considered to be a-priori the most "fair" system imaginable due to what can only be described as a quasi-religious adherence to neoliberal doctrine, people will be encouraged to blame whoever happens to be the fashionable scapegoat. Rather than seeing the problem as a structural one, for which no individual or group can be blamed, and changing it to better serve society, people will instead see the system as perfect when allowed to run without intervention, and therefore assume that there must be some group of individuals conspiring to bring the system to its knees. Jews would once have been the obvious target, but antisemitism has a bit of historical baggage to say the least. Instead, I see Muslims, gays, atheists, trade unionists, "the left" and the Federal Government having the finger pointed at it.

It might, however, be comforting for you to know that the UK is similarly fucked. We have a right wing coalition of the Lib Dem "Orange bookers" and the Tories. They have introduced spending cuts that are likely to condemn us to a second recession and possible depression. It's not just the 500,000 public sector jobs that will go; there are parts of this country, mainly in the north, that rely on the public sector to prop up the economy that Thatcher systematically and intentionally destroyed in order to weaken the trade union movement. Without the public sector workers spending their money locally, shops, small businesses, contractors, etc. will go out of business in no time. I can't decide if George Osborne is stupid or evil to be honest, though I am inclined to believe that he's a combination of both. In Britain, as in America, the poor are about to get much poorer, the middle will be squeezed and the super-rich will get much richer, thus ensuring that power is further entrenched in a small number of hands.
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Old 11-09-2010   #17
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Re: Will Things Now Move In The Right Direction???

The bill was not 'watered down due to compromise with republicans.' Republicans were shut out of the process; they brought forth idea after idea beforehand, but were not allowed to have input. The bill was written in committee, with backroom deals and millions of dollars in pork barrel projects. The only way the bill was able to pass was because of "pro-life" Democrats. Obama had essentially nothing to do with the bill anyway, he handed it over to the Democrats in Congress to pass, which was mistake number one. There was no 'insistence on compromise:' at least, not with Republicans. I watched several televised meetings in which Republicans brought out idea after idea that at least merited discussion and all were dismissed out of hand by Democrats; I saw Democrats say time after time that Republicans 'had no ideas' but I saw many proposals for solutions; the leadership was deaf to everything but their own agendas.

None of them wanted to hear what Republicans had to say, and to their credit they got it passed without Republican support; they didn't need or want input from the other side. More fool them, because now that premiums on health care are already being hiked up in anticipation of added costs, people who have to shell out extra each month have one party to blame.

The funny thing is, provisions of the bill aren't all that unpopular, and Republicans had ideas about how to incrementally fix almost all of the issues (expansion of coverage, allowing preexisting conditions, lowering costs across the board) and were extremely open to talk about it with Democrats, and perhaps compromise...but the leadership insisted on ramming that bill through without realizing (or more correctly, caring) that there are many unintended consequences to it, including breaking almost all of the "promises" that Obama made about the bill--namely, that you can keep your doctor, that it will lower costs, that there is no individual mandate, and that drug prices won't rise. Oh, and his claim about reducing the deficit through this bill has been refuted by multiple sources.

I'm also of the belief that this bill wasn't supposed to be pretty; it's supposed to be the first step toward a nationalized health care system. If anything, the bill is doing exactly what it's supposed to do: cause costs and problems to arise to a critical mass, eventually making government takeover "necessary."
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Old 11-09-2010   #18
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Re: Will Things Now Move In The Right Direction???

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Originally Said by Jenn and tonic View Post
The bill was not 'watered down due to compromise with republicans.' Republicans were shut out of the process; they brought forth idea after idea beforehand, but were not allowed to have input. The bill was written in committee, with backroom deals and millions of dollars in pork barrel projects. The only way the bill was able to pass was because of "pro-life" Democrats. Obama had essentially nothing to do with the bill anyway, he handed it over to the Democrats in Congress to pass, which was mistake number one. There was no 'insistence on compromise:' at least, not with Republicans. I watched several televised meetings in which Republicans brought out idea after idea that at least merited discussion and all were dismissed out of hand by Democrats; I saw Democrats say time after time that Republicans 'had no ideas' but I saw many proposals for solutions; the leadership was deaf to everything but their own agendas.
Interesting. That's certainly not the view we were given. There was an article in the Independent (I can't find it now) that claimed most of the detail came from Republican input. That said, I'm not in America and my main interest is in British and Irish politics, so it is more than posible that I am wrong on this one. Whether the compromise is with the Republicans or the right of the Democrats, he still compromised on what was said to be his vision. I'm no fan of the US democrats by the way, both parties are essentially right wing pro-business fronts, as is the case in any bougeois "democracy".

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None of them wanted to hear what Republicans had to say, and to their credit they got it passed without Republican support; they didn't need or want input from the other side. More fool them, because now that premiums on health care are already being hiked up in anticipation of added costs, people who have to shell out extra each month have one party to blame.
If that's the case, and their ultimate "agenda" is to force through a US version of the NHS, then why did they not simply do it all in one go? I can well believe that this is more expensive. It's neither your arse nor your elbow really, a damp squib of a bill.

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Originally Said by Jenn and tonic View Post
The funny thing is, provisions of the bill aren't all that unpopular, and Republicans had ideas about how to incrementally fix almost all of the issues (expansion of coverage, allowing preexisting conditions, lowering costs across the board) and were extremely open to talk about it with Democrats, and perhaps compromise...but the leadership insisted on ramming that bill through without realizing (or more correctly, caring) that there are many unintended consequences to it, including breaking almost all of the "promises" that Obama made about the bill--namely, that you can keep your doctor, that it will lower costs, that there is no individual mandate, and that drug prices won't rise. Oh, and his claim about reducing the deficit through this bill has been refuted by multiple sources.
Again, I have no reason to disbelieve any of this.

Not so sure about this bit though:

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Originally Said by Jenn and tonic View Post
I'm also of the belief that this bill wasn't supposed to be pretty; it's supposed to be the first step toward a nationalized health care system. If anything, the bill is doing exactly what it's supposed to do: cause costs and problems to arise to a critical mass, eventually making government takeover "necessary."
If, as you say above (and I have no reason to suspect that you're wrong) they did this independently and did not require the Republican vote, why didn't they simply push it through when they had the chance? Or was there enough opposition in the Decocrats to require compromise? Also, if they are a pro-business party (which nobody can credibly deny) what might be their motivation for wanting to push through socialised medicine? How will this benefit the multinationals? (Genuine questions by the way).

I would also like to know why so many Americans are so opposed to the NHS model. In Britain there isn't a single political party that would dare try to dismantle the NHS. The only politician in this country that has spoken out against it is Daniel Hannan, which is why he has been put out of sight as a Euro MP. When he gave his evidence free rant on Fox, David Cameron, his party leader, came out and called him a crank, though not in those exact words. It is the one issue that unites the entire electorate and in my view it's one of the few things that could generate sufficient unreast to bring about revolution. People really are that protective when it comes to socialised medicine. What are you afraid of? Is it a hangover from the cold war antipathy towards anything vaguely resembling socialism? (Again, I am genuinely interested)
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Old 11-09-2010   #19
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Re: Will Things Now Move In The Right Direction???

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Originally Said by Seamus Costello View Post
Interesting. That's certainly not the view we were given. There was an article in the Independent (I can't find it now) that claimed most of the detail came from Republican input. That said, I'm not in America and my main interest is in British and Irish politics, so it is more than posible that I am wrong on this one. Whether the compromise is with the Republicans or the right of the Democrats, he still compromised on what was said to be his vision. I'm no fan of the US democrats by the way, both parties are essentially right wing pro-business fronts, as is the case in any bougeois "democracy".
This is going to be purely my opinion here, but I thought I would throw this nugget out
--in my mind, neither party are really 'right wing.' They're corporatists; they're interested in big business, big corporations, and big government. Some may differ on their opinions about social issues and there are some members in Congress that aren't that way, but a majority of those in power are like that.



Quote:
If that's the case, and their ultimate "agenda" is to force through a US version of the NHS, then why did they not simply do it all in one go? I can well believe that this is more expensive. It's neither your arse nor your elbow really, a damp squib of a bill.

This bill essentially adds costs to everyone across the board except for those who are uninsured; otherwise, other than getting more people insured, the bill is as you say pretty ineffective.

Quote:
If, as you say above (and I have no reason to suspect that you're wrong) they did this independently and did not require the Republican vote, why didn't they simply push it through when they had the chance? Or was there enough opposition in the Decocrats to require compromise? Also, if they are a pro-business party (which nobody can credibly deny) what might be their motivation for wanting to push through socialised medicine? How will this benefit the multinationals? (Genuine questions by the way).
I can answer some of your questions, but not all. There was opposition within the Democrat party, and they included numerous provisions within the bill to get the Democrats who disagreed on board. One example is that "pro-life" (anti-abortion) Democrats wouldn't vote for it without a provision stating that abortions would not be covered or paid for by tax payers.

Republicans didn't have enough numbers to have much say in anything. The way bills are churned out these days are mostly in conference and committee meetings, hence the room for 'backroom deals' (which honestly is a large part of the reason why the bill is so unpopular)

Now, as to your pro-business question: As I stated, I don't think either party is "pro-business." Unless by business you mean big business/major corporations. It is said that Democrats are the party of 'the people' and Republicans are the party of 'business' but neither is true. Both are pro-corporation and big government. I suppose I could get into my beef with the two parties some other time, I feel like I'm digressing. Socialized medicine, the way they envision, benefits both because big drug companies and big health care industry related companies and corporations are going to be huge beneficiaries of this new law, and there is going to be a lot of power concentrated in Washington when this bill is implemented.

Quote:
I would also like to know why so many Americans are so opposed to the NHS model. In Britain there isn't a single political party that would dare try to dismantle the NHS. The only politician in this country that has spoken out against it is Daniel Hannan, which is why he has been put out of sight as a Euro MP. When he gave his evidence free rant on Fox, David Cameron, his party leader, came out and called him a crank, though not in those exact words. It is the one issue that unites the entire electorate and in my view it's one of the few things that could generate sufficient unreast to bring about revolution. People really are that protective when it comes to socialised medicine. What are you afraid of? Is it a hangover from the cold war antipathy towards anything vaguely resembling socialism? (Again, I am genuinely interested)
I have to preface this by saying that you may not have seen some of my previous posts but I'll state my beliefs: I think that for the most part, the less government, the better. That isn't to say that I don't see the need for government, but I don't trust the government or politicians with much power.

Part of the opposition is antipathy toward socialism. Distrust of government is a little more widespread here than other countries.

People think that having a mandate for health care takes away from freedom and I see the point: requiring someone to buy something, or businesses to provide health care coverage or face consequences does not ring true for American ideals about freedom. I could name several other reasons people don't like the bill that Congress passed but I'll get into why people don't like your model of care.

Many see stats about cancer survival rates---especially in Britain--and worry that it will be repeated here. Many worry about treatment rationing, which does happen with many countries with socialized health care to reduce costs.

Others have been on some form of government health care for a short time through medicaid and didn't like the options they had as far as doctors and their care went.

There is a legitimate worry that top doctors will flee their practices ahead of these new regulations and costs and will leave us with doctors that aren't as great. In other words, people will have to settle for more "C" grade doctors when we used to be able to easily find "A" grade doctors.

Whether rational or not, many also see how government institutions here are run and believe it's a nightmare, and if that's spread to something as important as hospitals there could be a marked decrease in quality of care.

People that don't understand people's skepticism of government-run health care like to say it's because we don't care about the sick, the elderly, the uninsured, the children, et cetera, but that's not it; we do and we think that something needs to change here. It's that we don't think the government is going to do what it says it will do, and it may end up being at big costs, especially right now when the US is in a LOT of debt and have no way to pay for this new entitlement program.

Also, thank you for the questions, I love rational debates---they're rare online these days. Hope this continues.
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Old 11-09-2010   #20
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Re: Will Things Now Move In The Right Direction???

It amazes me how many people believe that capitalism is such a bad thing and that is what is ruining our country.
The US hasn't experienced true free market capitalism in probably 100 years other than in maybe local communities.
Our economy has been run keynesian. Government in with big business...that's not Capitalism, that's Corporatism.

More Repubs I believe need to disown the Bush administrations as being perceived as real and true Repubs. They were not...they are neocons/RINOs that pissed all over the constitution like Obama is now...just in a different way.

John Boehner, a Washington insider who supported the Obama Wall Street Bailouts, is supposed to replace Pelosi as Speaker of the House. This is that whole two sides of the same coin thing going on.

Michele Bachmann, Ron Paul, Allen West, Andrew Napolitano...these are the conservatives who appear to carry the message for the people overall and show REAL convictions in the constitution. I like what Sarah Palin stands for, but I don't think she's presidential material.
Michele Bachmann is more qualified than Palin or Pelosi in any political position IMO. Dennis Kucinich seems to be the only Dem left who has any values. If there are more, they certainly are not speaking up.

I honestly like the idea of a resource-based economy outlined in the Venus project...it's at least worth looking into more than it has been.

And what may seem to work in other countries won't necessarily work for the US. Most Americans believe in the Constitution and Bill of Rights, and that is what they will always believe works best for them.
So what works for Europe, or what works for Japan, or what works for Mongolia probably won't work for the U.S.
The whole borders, language, and culture sentiment hits the nail on the head...and this why the US needs to stop occupying other countries and why we need to secure our borders. I'm with Mark Steyn and his views on multi-culturalism...it's not realistic, it doesn't work, and it ends up being a disaster.

Many companies are forced to raise their healthcare premiums now that there are more government mandates that are required for business to have. Boeing had to raise it premiums to 90,000 of it's employees.

According to The Wall Street Journal, the following are just some of the health insurance companies that have announced rate hikes that are at least partially attributed to Obamacare....

*Aetna says that the extra benefits that the new health care reform law is forcing it to cover are behind rate increases for new individual plans of 5.4% to 7.4% in California and 5.5% to 6.8% in Nevada.

*Regence BlueCross BlueShield of Oregon claims that the cost of providing additional benefits under Obamacare will account for 3.4% of a 17.1% premium rise for small employers.

*Celtic Insurance claims that half of a whopping 18% health insurance premium increase it is seeking comes from complying with mandates in the new health care law.

Here is the reason CareFirst/Blue Cross/Blue Shield of Washington gave its subscribers for raising a monthly premium from $333 to $512 on a middle aged man who is healthy, is not a smoker and is not obese: "Your new rate reflects the overall rise in health care costs and we regret having to pass these additional costs on to you."

Like it or not, socialism has never been a part of our borders, language, and culture...therefore will NEVER work here in this country.

And if the government here wants to regulate anything...how about Congress helping by regulating a sound monetary policy that isn't based on printing money out of thin air...that would be the first step.
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