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Old 02-16-2008   #1
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Mark of the Beast?

That's what this Atheist would call it. It being the RFID implant, which two employees for the CityWatcher surveillance company were required to get for their jobs. From NBC:

High-tech helper or Big Brother?
To some, the microchip was a wondrous invention — a high-tech helper that could increase security at nuclear plants and military bases, help authorities identify wandering Alzheimer’s patients, allow consumers to buy their groceries, literally, with the wave of a chipped hand.

To others, the notion of tagging people was Orwellian, a departure from centuries of history and tradition in which people had the right to go and do as they pleased without being tracked, unless they were harming someone else.

Chipping, these critics said, might start with Alzheimer’s patients or Army Rangers, but would eventually be suggested for convicts, then parolees, then sex offenders, then illegal aliens — until one day, a majority of Americans, falling into one category or another, would find themselves electronically tagged.

I found the article through http://www.spychips.com, which also sells a book on the subject. Scary shit - lots of products you buy are already remotely trackable, possibly at distances up to a mile.
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Old 02-16-2008   #2
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Re: Mark of the Beast?

For a job? I think thats a bit fishy.

But i think its a pretty good idea for convicted murderers (since people think execution is wrong) and sex offenders. Not necessarily other crimes like drugs and shiz.
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Old 02-16-2008   #3
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Re: Mark of the Beast?

Quote:
Originally Said by Demento
For a job? I think thats a bit fishy.
Well, at least in this particular article they were volunteers.

Quote:
But i think its a pretty good idea for convicted murderers (since people think execution is wrong) and sex offenders. Not necessarily other crimes like drugs and shiz.
Execution is wrong.
But so is "chipping".

I detest the idea of governments, corporations, or any other shady individuals having the power to identify you this way. It violates what the Supreme Court has determined constitutes our "right to privacy".

Quote:
Originally Said by The 4th Amendment of the Constitution
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
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I pulled these bits from the article to comment on:

Quote:
Yet, within days of the company’s announcement, civil libertarians and Christian conservatives joined to excoriate the microchip’s implantation in people.
Now, it's not often that I see a civil libertarian like myself in agreement with a Christian conservative. Nope, not often at all.

Quote:
John Halamka, an emergency physician at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center in Boston got chipped two years ago, “so that if I was ever in an accident, and arrived unconscious or incoherent at an emergency ward, doctors could identify me and access my medical history quickly.” (A chipped person’s medical profile can be continuously updated, since the information is stored on a database accessed via the Internet.)
Uhm... couldn't they just go to the Internet for that information if it is there? That Internet is pretty fast I hear.

Quote:
How about thieves? Could they make their own readers, aim them at unsuspecting individuals, and surreptitiously pluck people’s IDs out of their arms? (Yes. There’s even a name for it — “spoofing.”)

The company that makes implantable microchips for humans, VeriChip Corp., of Delray Beach, Fla., concedes that’s a problem — even as it markets its radio tag and its portal scanner as imperatives for high-security buildings, such as nuclear power plants.
Terrorists, take note.
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Old 02-16-2008   #4
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Re: Mark of the Beast?

Quote:
Well, at least in this particular article they were volunteers.
Thats what i get for speedreading.

Quote:
Execution is wrong.
But so is "chipping".

I detest the idea of governments, corporations, or any other shady individuals having the power to identify you this way. It violates what the Supreme Court has determined constitutes our "right to privacy".
Convicted murderers shouldn't have rights. But thats where we disagree.
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Old 02-16-2008   #5
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Re: Mark of the Beast?

Quote:
allow consumers to buy their groceries, literally, with the wave of a chipped hand.
Revelation 13:16-17 (King James Version)

16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.


I have a power point that would go really well with this article, but i don't think i can upload it here. I tried to before and it didn't work.
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Old 02-16-2008   #6
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Re: Mark of the Beast?

Quote:
Originally Said by Emperor Chaos View Post
Execution is wrong.
But so is "chipping".

I detest the idea of governments, corporations, or any other shady individuals having the power to identify you this way. It violates what the Supreme Court has determined constitutes our "right to privacy".
Word.

I don't think this is the "mark of the beast," though, obviously, simply because the events preceding the coming of the Anti-Christ and his mark-giving-ness have not occurred...

...yet. *Raises index finger significantly*
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Old 02-16-2008   #7
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Re: Mark of the Beast?

Quote:
Originally Said by Demento View Post
Thats what i get for speedreading.
Ehh, it happens.

Quote:
Convicted murderers shouldn't have rights. But thats where we disagree.
I'd agree with you except that what if the convicted murderer in question was actually innocent? If we start taking some of their rights away, would it be okay for us to take away their free speech? Consider Mumia Abu-Jamal, if you will.

Quote:
Originally Said by The-Chadster View Post
Revelation 13:16-17 (King James Version)

16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
And that number is 616.

They should have never written Revelation. It is the most insane book of the all... ravings of a lunatic. It has been misinterpreted and reinterpreted over the last 1700 years.

Quote:
Originally Said by Zanahoria_Picante View Post
Word.

I don't think this is the "mark of the beast," though, obviously, simply because the events preceding the coming of the Anti-Christ and his mark-giving-ness have not occurred...

...yet. *Raises index finger significantly*
"Oh, how I wish I were the Antichrist, that it were mineto crush the Demon; to hurl him to his native Hell never to rise again -- I expect to gratify some of this insatiable feeling in Poetry."
-Percy Bysshe Shelley

And I wish I were the Antichrist too. I see the Antichrist as something different than most people see it. The Greek prefix "anti-" means both "the opposite of" and "instead of". I think the "instead of" meaning is important.

I'd make a good Antichrist.

Anyway, the whole Apocalyptic vision that many have derived from Revelation is relatively new. I think it was first conceived in the 19th century.
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Old 02-16-2008   #8
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Re: Mark of the Beast?

Oh hell no. I don't care what you've done, murderer or not--these chips should NEVER be used. EVER.

Ever, ever, ever.
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Old 02-16-2008   #9
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Re: Mark of the Beast?

Quote:
Originally Said by Emperor Chaos View Post
I'd agree with you except that what if the convicted murderer in question was actually innocent? If we start taking some of their rights away, would it be okay for us to take away their free speech?
I always forget to clarify in this thread and in capitol punishment debates, I mean convicted murderers where there are eyewitnesses and indubidible evidence against the murderer.
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Old 02-17-2008   #10
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Re: Mark of the Beast?

Quote:
Originally Said by Zanahoria_Picante View Post
Word.

I don't think this is the "mark of the beast," though, obviously, simply because the events preceding the coming of the Anti-Christ and his mark-giving-ness have not occurred...

...yet. *Raises index finger significantly*
True, but if all that happened this would be the perfect form for such a mark. It could probably be implanted in some area where you couldn't remove it without a surgeon.
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Old 02-17-2008   #11
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Re: Mark of the Beast?

Quote:
Originally Said by Emperor Chaos View Post
And that number is 616.

They should have never written Revelation. It is the most insane book of the all... ravings of a lunatic. It has been misinterpreted and reinterpreted over the last 1700 years.
The verse immediately after the one The-Chadster quoted, Rev. 13:18, reads "This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666."

"666" is the number in the original Greek, which makes sense contextually also since the Anti-Christ will endeavor to deceive man into thinking he is God, while his "number" (symbolically) screams "he is man. He is man. He is man." So, the "wise" will see through his lies.

Revelation's "fraught" with symbolism, yes, but if you interpret it consistently and contextually, it at least helps in understanding ('twill be abundantly clear and non-symbolic in its fulfillment, of course, as with all prophecy). It's all rather curious, though, I agree.

Quote:
"Oh, how I wish I were the Antichrist, that it were mineto crush the Demon; to hurl him to his native Hell never to rise again -- I expect to gratify some of this insatiable feeling in Poetry."
-Percy Bysshe Shelley

And I wish I were the Antichrist too. I see the Antichrist as something different than most people see it. The Greek prefix "anti-" means both "the opposite of" and "instead of". I think the "instead of" meaning is important.

I'd make a good Antichrist.
You could be an anti-Christ, I suppose. Being the Anti-Christ will not be fun and does not end well, frankly.

Quote:
Anyway, the whole Apocalyptic vision that many have derived from Revelation is relatively new. I think it was first conceived in the 19th century.
Er, not really. "The Greek word from which the English word 'apocalypse' is derived means 'an unveiling, a disclosing, or a revelation.'" So, Revelation itself is an Apocalyptic vision (Revelation is a revelation...).

Quote:
Originally Said by HolokittyNX
True, but if all that happened this would be the perfect form for such a mark. It could probably be implanted in some area where you couldn't remove it without a surgeon.
Quite. Good point.

*Ahem* Anyway *Clears throat loudly*

I agree with Jenn about "just say 'no' to chips." The only way I'll ever get "chipped" is if someone erects a statue of me and moves "me" carelessly from one park to another. And no one wants to see that (a statue of me, that is).
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Old 02-17-2008   #12
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Re: Mark of the Beast?

Quote:
Originally Said by Emperor Chaos View Post
And that number is 616.

Just wondering, where did you get 616? You always hear its "666" and the bible (KJV) says "six hundred threescore and six" But i have heard arguments against it, i 'm just wondering what yours is. Unless it was just somehow a typo, then n/m.

Quote:
Originally Said by Zanahoria_Picante
You could be an anti-Christ, I suppose. Being the Anti-Christ will not be fun and does not end well, frankly.


Haha
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Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So clap your hands to the sound
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Watch the rivers flow with blood
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Old 02-17-2008   #13
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Re: Mark of the Beast?

616 (number)

"Different early versions of the Book of Revelation gave different numbers, and 666 had been widely accepted as the original number. In 2005, however, a fragment of papyrus was revealed, containing the earliest known version of that part of the Book of Revelation discussing the Number of the Beast. It gave the number as 616, suggesting that this may have been the original."
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Old 02-17-2008   #14
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Re: Mark of the Beast?

Why thank you =P


And i found a place to get that Power Point i spoke of earlier.
The Admin that posted it, his name is Chad, but its not me, just to clear that up. I have never been to this site before, actually. But , yeah, click here to download the Power Point. It takes no more than 2 min. with dial-up.
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Old 02-17-2008   #15
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Re: Mark of the Beast?

This subject has gone off-topic, but it's Holokitty's fault for titling it as such.

Quote:
Originally Said by Zanahoria_Picante View Post
The verse immediately after the one The-Chadster quoted, Rev. 13:18, reads "This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666."
And wisdom I shall use. You have your sources and I have mine. I purposefully used 616 rather than the more common 666 to spark controversy.

Quote:
"666" is the number in the original Greek, which makes sense contextually also since the Anti-Christ will endeavor to deceive man into thinking he is God, while his "number" (symbolically) screams "he is man. He is man. He is man." So, the "wise" will see through his lies.
Interesting how you God-fearing Bible-studying types bring in the original language when it suits you, but for the most part cling to your King James version.

Did you know that 666 is a symbol for the Roman emperor Nero Caesar?

Quote:
Originally Said by Wikipedia
The difference in numbers has also been explained by the fact that the Greek and Latin spellings of Nero’s name transliterate differently into Hebrew (the language used to create the coded numerology). The Greek spelling, “Neron Caesar,” transliterates into Hebrew as “nrwn qsr,” which equates numerically to 666 (Hebrew letters double as numbers for both practical and theological purposes; see entries at Hebrew numerals and gematria). By contrast, the Latin title for Nero is spelled simply “Nero Caesar,” which transliterates to “nrw qsr,” or 616.[16]
If Nero was the Antichrist, then he has come and gone and Jesus has yet to return.

Quote:
Revelation's "fraught" with symbolism, yes, but if you interpret it consistently and contextually, it at least helps in understanding ('twill be abundantly clear and non-symbolic in its fulfillment, of course, as with all prophecy). It's all rather curious, though, I agree.
Who is to say that you are interpreting it correctly? As I said, it's been misinterpreted and reinterpret for the last 1700 or more years. If it original meant Nero, then it was wrong then about Christ's return.

Regardless, religious scholars have been making predictions about who the Antichrist was centuries upon centuries. They've been consistently and contextually wrong.

I wonder if I read it again if I could interpret it to mean that it is all a bunch of balderdash. Then it would be abundantly clear and non-symbolic in its fulfillment, of course.

Quote:
You could be an anti-Christ, I suppose. Being the Anti-Christ will not be fun and does not end well, frankly.
According to your beliefs, maybe. But the Antichrist (notice the lack of a hyphen and capitalization of Christ in mine) could very well be the true Savior of the World. In that cast, I'd love to be the Antichrist!

The Bible mentions that there was a war in Heaven between those loyal to Lucifer and those loyal to Yahweh. It says that Yahweh's faction won and that a third of the angels were cast down or whatever.

Let's assume, for a moment, that the evil entity was not Lucifer as has been ingrained in our minds but actually Yahweh. The divinely-inspired Bible was the machinations of an evil being, then. The Son of God, the so-called Messiah, Jesus Christ could actually be a false Prophet to lead the world astray. If Yahweh were as omniscient as he claims, he would know that there would be wars fought around the religion based upon a man who preached nothing but peace. Truly a cold-hearted calculating bastard would send this prophet to Earth.

Now, consider this new Savior arises. If Lucifer were truly the good being, could it not be one of his descendents who attains such a status as Antichrist. Maybe this man, for that's all he will be, will preach peace and reason and the advancement of sciences, technology, equality, etc. Maybe this man, whoever he is, will lead the world to a new era. One that is rife with peace and plenty.

I believe Humanity's Salvation comes not from mysticism and magic but from science and reason.

Not the opposite of Christ, but instead of Christ. If Christ was the human son of an evil entity, the Antichrist would be the noble descendent of the original good entity.

I am sure that is too far-fetched for you to believe... but a truly evil being of omnipotent power could more easily dupe the masses than a benevolent being who divinely inspires others to write.

Quote:
Er, not really. "The Greek word from which the English word 'apocalypse' is derived means 'an unveiling, a disclosing, or a revelation.'" So, Revelation itself is an Apocalyptic vision (Revelation is a revelation...).
No, you misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about the etymology of the word Apocalypse. I am referring to the belief that many Doomsayers hold which is essentially that evil will come from technology that human's create. And that the Mark of the Beast will come in the form of implanted chips. Though in the '60s and '70s it was barcodes tattooed on your wrists. In the '30s and '40s it was the swastika.

The point is, these people have been consistently wrong and will continue to be consistently wrong because, quite frankly, the world isn't going to come to an end anytime soon.

Quote:
Originally Said by The-Chadster View Post
Just wondering, where did you get 616? You always hear its "666" and the bible (KJV) says "six hundred threescore and six" But i have heard arguments against it, i 'm just wondering what yours is. Unless it was just somehow a typo, then n/m.
Well, I don't have to explain it as Ms. Phoenix was courteous enough to wiki it for me. As I said to Zana, I purposefully used "616" rather than "666" to spark the very controversy I am responding to. I rarely make typos. How would you type 616 anyway? The numbers are further from each other than would warrant a typo, and repeating three numbers in sequence would rarely result in one.

Quote:
Originally Said by foxyphoenix View Post
616 (number)

"Different early versions of the Book of Revelation gave different numbers, and 666 had been widely accepted as the original number. In 2005, however, a fragment of papyrus was revealed, containing the earliest known version of that part of the Book of Revelation discussing the Number of the Beast. It gave the number as 616, suggesting that this may have been the original."
I thank you.
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Old 02-17-2008   #16
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Re: Mark of the Beast?

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Originally Said by Emperor Chaos View Post
Interesting how you God-fearing Bible-studying types bring in the original language when it suits you, but for the most part cling to your King James version.

Did you know that 666 is a symbol for the Roman emperor Nero Caesar?
Only when people bring up questions about super-specific details and when knowing the original meaning may help clarify.

I use NIV.

Yes, I've heard of that. And I'm sure you could find other instances throughout history that seem to match Revelation's prophecies, but none fulfill it exactly, as all other Biblical prophecies have been fulfilled (as with Christ). The events are described as happening in a specific order and in great detail. The description and specific doings--and the events preceding and following the life--of Nero do not coincide with Revelation.

He might have been an Antichrist/Anti-Christ/antichrist/ANTIchrist, but not the.

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Who is to say that you are interpreting it correctly? As I said, it's been misinterpreted and reinterpret for the last 1700 or more years. If it original meant Nero, then it was wrong then about Christ's return.

Regardless, religious scholars have been making predictions about who the Antichrist was centuries upon centuries. They've been consistently and contextually wrong.

I wonder if I read it again if I could interpret it to mean that it is all a bunch of balderdash. Then it would be abundantly clear and non-symbolic in its fulfillment, of course.
By following a consistent, literal interpretation (according to the normal use of language with respect to the figurative) anyone can interpret. Anyone can also mystify the language and allegorize every little detail, which is one reason why so much confusion and controversy has surrounded this book (and others). It's written in normal, human language, so that's how we should read it.

Quote:
According to your beliefs, maybe. But the Antichrist (notice the lack of a hyphen and capitalization of Christ in mine) could very well be the true Savior of the World. In that cast, I'd love to be the Antichrist!

The Bible mentions that there was a war in Heaven between those loyal to Lucifer and those loyal to Yahweh. It says that Yahweh's faction won and that a third of the angels were cast down or whatever.

Let's assume, for a moment, that the evil entity was not Lucifer as has been ingrained in our minds but actually Yahweh. The divinely-inspired Bible was the machinations of an evil being, then. The Son of God, the so-called Messiah, Jesus Christ could actually be a false Prophet to lead the world astray. If Yahweh were as omniscient as he claims, he would know that there would be wars fought around the religion based upon a man who preached nothing but peace. Truly a cold-hearted calculating bastard would send this prophet to Earth.

Now, consider this new Savior arises. If Lucifer were truly the good being, could it not be one of his descendents who attains such a status as Antichrist. Maybe this man, for that's all he will be, will preach peace and reason and the advancement of sciences, technology, equality, etc. Maybe this man, whoever he is, will lead the world to a new era. One that is rife with peace and plenty.

I believe Humanity's Salvation comes not from mysticism and magic but from science and reason.

Not the opposite of Christ, but instead of Christ. If Christ was the human son of an evil entity, the Antichrist would be the noble descendent of the original good entity.

I am sure that is too far-fetched for you to believe... but a truly evil being of omnipotent power could more easily dupe the masses than a benevolent being who divinely inspires others to write.
You may assume all that, if you like, but you cannot glean that from Scripture.

Quote:
No, you misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about the etymology of the word Apocalypse. I am referring to the belief that many Doomsayers hold which is essentially that evil will come from technology that human's create. And that the Mark of the Beast will come in the form of implanted chips. Though in the '60s and '70s it was barcodes tattooed on your wrists. In the '30s and '40s it was the swastika.

The point is, these people have been consistently wrong and will continue to be consistently wrong because, quite frankly, the world isn't going to come to an end anytime soon.
Sorry. I see what you're saying now.

Doomsayers do not discredit scripture. Scripture says we will neither know the time nor the hour of Christ's return and that He will "come like a thief in the night," and directs people to live godly lives in anticipation of His return, but never directs people to try to discern the exact date, etc. In fact, such actions go against Scripture.

So...yes...sorry for the tangent once again...*Awkwardly jumps out of sight*
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Old 02-17-2008   #17
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Re: Mark of the Beast?

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Originally Said by Zanahoria_Picante View Post
Only when people bring up questions about super-specific details and when knowing the original meaning may help clarify.

I use NIV.
NIV, KJV, it's all so far-flung from the original language that how can you trust it?

Quote:
Yes, I've heard of that. And I'm sure you could find other instances throughout history that seem to match Revelation's prophecies, but none fulfill it exactly, as all other Biblical prophecies have been fulfilled (as with Christ). The events are described as happening in a specific order and in great detail. The description and specific doings--and the events preceding and following the life--of Nero do not coincide with Revelation.

He might have been an Antichrist/Anti-Christ/antichrist/ANTIchrist, but not the.
You just keep waiting for that then.


Quote:
You may assume all that, if you like, but you cannot glean that from Scripture.
Exactly my point. If Yahweh was evil, why would he hint within Scripture that he was the bad guy? If he wanted people to follow him, he would continue to deceive them.


Quote:
Doomsayers do not discredit scripture. Scripture says we will neither know the time nor the hour of Christ's return and that He will "come like a thief in the night," and directs people to live godly lives in anticipation of His return, but never directs people to try to discern the exact date, etc. In fact, such actions go against Scripture.
This is very true, what with the whole anti-astrology thing.

I was just saying that they've been wrong before when they've made claims like this, what would be any different now?

Quote:
So...yes...sorry for the tangent once again...*Awkwardly jumps out of sight*
*awkwardly runs after you to tell you all the above*
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Old 02-20-2008   #18
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Re: Mark of the Beast?

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Convicted murderers shouldn't have rights. But thats where we disagree.
That line of thought could work if our judicial system wasn't run by heartless soulless criminals.

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They should have never written Revelation. It is the most insane book of the all... ravings of a lunatic. It has been misinterpreted and reinterpreted over the last 1700 years.
Revelation is the best part of the Bible. The rest is just drivel -- blah blah blah sacrifice your children blah blah blah pillar of salt. It's like Return of the Jedi or The Empire Strikes Back, I'm not sure which one, but Jesus is either Luke or Vader.

Anyway I think you guys are all reacting to this chip business in a far too typically American way. I have an idea -- why don't we allow individuals to actually make decisions for themselves?

I think that's a good idea.

I'll give you an example -- I don't want to install one of these chips in my arm. So I'm not going to. If I have a child, I will not install one in them either. If they grow up and want one installed, they can do that. I'm okay with that. I am not their slave master.

It seems as if you are so selfish that your minds cannot fathom the existence of other people's opinions/beliefs. There are many things in this world that I would refrain from, but I would expect no other life form to follow suit.

Should they mandate the installation of these things? No. Should they outlaw them? Of course not. Should they remain available to those who wish to utilize them? Yes.

See? That's how freedom works. Do what you want and let others do what they want. You don't want to marry someone of the same sex, that's okay, you don't have to, but don't ruin it for everyone else. You don't believe in abortions? Don't get them. But not everyone is a carbon copy of yourself. Not everyone shares your opinion.

The sooner we realize this and accept it, the sooner we can get back on track and discuss real topics such as global goals without being distracted by such outmoded perceptual illnesses such as nationalism and egocentricity.
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