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Old 01-15-2009   #1
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no religion in school

So yesterday the students at Jay High School found out that they will not have a baccalaureate service any more. Teachers are no longer allowed to talk about religion. The clubs CWO, FCA, and Youth Alive will have to be student-runned. And we are mad about it, but we are ready. Today at lunch about a hundred students gathered to pray. I am proud to say I was there.

Do you think that it is fair for the state to take out our right to praise at school?
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Old 01-15-2009   #2
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Re: no religion in school

They didn't take that right away. You're still allowed to pray, as was demonstrated earlier today. All they took away was the state's involvement in religion. You still have the organizations, but they're the responsibility of the students now. If anything they gave you more responsibility, instead of taking away rights.

The state can't be seen advocating any particular religion. Teachers are allowed, I'm sure, to talk about religion in general, just not speak more favorably of one over the other.
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Old 01-15-2009   #3
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Re: no religion in school

I went to a private school and our baccalaureate took place at a resort on Kiawah Island for years. Yet, when we got a new headmaster he changed the baccalaureate location to a baptist church closer to the school. i was pretty pissed off. Though our class was small, there were people in the school who were not Christian. In my graduating class there were about three people who were not of Christian faith. I thought moving the baccalaureate to a baptist church was in bad taste. My family is not baptist and further more my friends did not even practice the same religion as my headmaster. I know the baccalaureate is not forced upon students, but everyone wants to go to a cermony with their peers. I thought having it at a resort or neutral center was a wise decision of my old headmaster...
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Old 01-15-2009   #4
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Re: no religion in school

Alex who is a senior this year - could not give a damn about it but as you can see ^ it means a lot more to his sister.

Tom and I were talking about this yesterday. Like Andrew said, "to talk about religion in general, just not speak more favorably of one over the other." Personally I would have to agree. Bri was "Saved" this summer is now a member of Jay Baptist church. Both Tom and I are Catholics but neither of us attend or are members of any one church. We believe in God and that's the extent of our religion.
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Old 01-15-2009   #5
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Re: no religion in school

Doesn't sound like anything is being banned or disallowed as such, you've probably been fed some lines from one of your preachey friends. You can praise whoever you want at school, it's just the school that can't force it onto people now.
I was forced to sing hymns and all that in school, it only made me dislike religion even more. Even from a religious point of view- it's better that people have choice to believe what they want, if you put someone in a situation they don't agree with then most people will rebel and well, we can't burn heretics anymore for some reason. I used to make stupid noises during hymns, kick mud at the teachers and just flat out refuse to sing. If praying and singing hymns were optional and I were asked if I wanted to take part in student organised stuff then I might have even said yes, but force it on me and hell no.
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Old 01-15-2009   #6
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Re: no religion in school

Man, I was pissed when they required saying the Pledge of Allegiance at school*, I can't imagine how angry I would be if there were teacher- or school-led prayer.

Bri, I know it sounds like they're out to get the Christians of your school by not allowing certain shows of religion, but please think about how your non-Christian classmates feel. I guarantee that Christians are the majority at your school, so their persecution complex is unfounded in this case. More than that, I bet that there were never any Islam prayers recited at the ceremonies, or Jewish, or whatever. I also bet that, as many students were in the prayer demonstration, there were many who were not; put yourself in their shoes. For the non-Christian students, this is a balance from an overwhelmingly Christian majority. By not forcing your practices on them, you're allowing for them to have their own practices or not to practice at all. Not favoring one religion is actually ensuring religious freedom.

Personally, I think that any school-sponsored or -led religious practices should be banned from public schools citing the separation of church and state. Students should be allowed to express worship in any non-school-official way however they please, so long as it does not interfere with the learning of other students. Religion should be taught critically (i.e. not Christian Mass but Religious Studies or The History of Western Religion).

If a public school favored the practices of any one religion, that would constitute establishment, which is banned by the first amendment.


* I fought this stupid thing tooth and nail, and its mindless recitation no longer takes up class time. Students are free to say it before school, but interrupting the learning environment is not allowed. The first step to doing this was, obviously, to object to the requirement of saying "Under God" during the pledge; my fellow classmates and I got them to make that sentence optional, and then it wasn't long until the "we have to take a 50 minute test in a 50 minute period and you're taking five minutes of that time to introduce, recite, and observe the pledge?! Every day?! HELL NO." argument won over.
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Old 01-15-2009   #7
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Re: no religion in school

Damn, David.. you're such a rebel

Don't push your authoritah on me!!!
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Old 01-15-2009   #8
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Re: no religion in school

Quote:
Originally Said by ROSEWITHTHORNS View Post
Do you think that it is fair for the state to take out our right to praise at school?
No, I do not think it is fair.

Do you think Christian students enjoy being taught Evolution and such naturalistic views as a requirement? How is it fair that if Christians sit under that (pretty much) throughout their public education in different contexts that Christians should be banned from expressing their beliefs?

Sure, prayer should not be forced upon anyone, nor should the expression of belief in God, but neither should Christians be prohibited from expressing their views through prayer or any sort of worship. That is wrong. Whatever happened to "freedom of religion"?
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Old 01-15-2009   #9
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Re: no religion in school

^well at my school we had to option to belong to organizations that were religious. The concept was that the minister came in during a period that was not being used, say a study hall, and he would talk to the students who were religious, read from the bible and just basically hangout for that period. It was kinda like he said something from the bible and then there was an open discussion. Those who wanted to go could or you could go to study hall, play around in the art center, etc.

We also had an hour break from 10:00-11:00, the first 15 minutes the headmaster talked to the student body about sports scores, academic matters, meeting etc, then there would be a prayer...a christian prayer. I brought it up to the headmaster that not all the students were chrisitan so occasionally he would throw in a prayer from a different religion.

Not all schools are taught "naturalistic views." A school here, James Island Christian, have classes that teach about passages in the bible and evolution as well as creationism. However, the real debate is that the kids may not want to learn christian beliefs or maybe they do not want to learn naturalistic views. People pay to have ideas forced down their children's throats that they believe, and then there are the children who have no choice but to attend the school in their district.

This is quite a touchy subject with no real solution, everyone will have their own opinion.
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Old 01-15-2009   #10
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Re: no religion in school

Did you people read? Rose did not say anywhere that the school has banned religion. She just said the teachers don't have to talk about it.

There's no force of or rejection of religion.

If you people ever read into context (which the half of you never do), Rose's paragraph just said that Jay High school does not give a shit about religion and as was stated by Shortys, the state has informed Jay High school to make it the students responsibility to pray or have whatever religion they want. the school isn't going to remind them.

Everything is fair about that.
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Old 01-15-2009   #11
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Re: no religion in school

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Originally Said by GoddessDivine View Post
^well at my school we had to option to belong to organizations that were religious. The concept was that the minister came in during a period that was not being used, say a study hall, and he would talk to the students who were religious, read from the bible and just basically hangout for that period. It was kinda like he said something from the bible and then there was an open discussion. Those who wanted to go could or you could go to study hall, play around in the art center, etc.

We also had an hour break from 10:00-11:00, the first 15 minutes the headmaster talked to the student body about sports scores, academic matters, meeting etc, then there would be a prayer...a christian prayer. I brought it up to the headmaster that not all the students were chrisitan so occasionally he would throw in a prayer from a different religion.

Not all schools are taught "naturalistic views." A school here, James Island Christian, have classes that teach about passages in the bible and evolution as well as creationism. However, the real debate is that the kids may not want to learn christian beliefs or maybe they do not want to learn naturalistic views. People pay to have ideas forced down their children's throats that they believe, and then there are the children who have no choice but to attend the school in their district.

This is quite a touchy subject with no real solution, everyone will have their own opinion.
Well, my school, a public school, essentially taught naturalistic views when on the subject of the "first cause," as it were, and "the origin of life," teaching the Big Bang and Evolution and the like, without even mentioning different perspectives. But oh well.

I don't see the problem with practicing religion in schools as long as it is optional.

Quote:
Originally Said by psychoDiablo
Did you people read? Rose did not say anywhere that the school has banned religion. She just said the teachers don't have to talk about it.

There's no force of or rejection of religion.

If you people ever read into context (which the half of you never do), Rose's paragraph just said that Jay High school does not give a shit about religion and as was stated by Shortys, the state has informed Jay High school to make it the students responsibility to pray or have whatever religion they want. the school isn't going to remind them.

Everything is fair about that.
*Ahem*

Quote:
Originally Said by ROSEWITHTHORNS
So yesterday the students at Jay High School found out that they will not have a baccalaureate service any more. Teachers are no longer allowed to talk about religion.
And she also posed this question: Do you think that it is fair for the state to take out our right to praise at school?

So, uh, yeah.
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Old 01-15-2009   #12
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Re: no religion in school

Quote:
Originally Said by Zanahoria_Picante View Post
Well, my school, a public school, essentially taught naturalistic views when on the subject of the "first cause," as it were, and "the origin of life," teaching the Big Bang and Evolution and the like, without even mentioning different perspectives. But oh well.

I don't see the problem with practicing religion in schools as long as it is optional.

*Ahem*



And she also posed this question: Do you think that it is fair for the state to take out our right to praise at school?

So, uh, yeah.
neither do i. religion is a very personal matter and should not be taken away or forced upon. I am sure there are children who pray before they eat their lunch. It would be nice if the public schools gave classes like religious studies as an option to students. That way students can choose if they want to take the class or not. IDK though, in a public high school are you allowed to pick your classes or are you placed in classes?
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Old 01-15-2009   #13
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Re: no religion in school

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Originally Said by GoddessDivine View Post
neither do i. religion is a very personal matter and should not be taken away or forced upon.

I am sure there are children who pray before they eat their lunch. It would be nice if the public schools gave classes like religious studies as an option to students. That way students can choose if they want to take the class or not. IDK though, in a public high school are you allowed to pick your classes or are you placed in classes?
Indeed.

Well, I don't know about RWT's school, but mine did have one, optional religious studies course, but that, too, was rather biased, despite its claims of being impartial.

Some classes were required, like Biology, obviously, which is where the majority of the Evolution-teaching and Naturalistic-view-presenting went down, of course. I suppose nothing can be done about it to equal things out, other than to not hinder those who believe in something else from expressing their beliefs; that seems fair.
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Old 01-15-2009   #14
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Re: no religion in school

My school required math classes. I have a personal objection as I do not believe in the axioms of arithmetic. I still had to take math classes (far more, i'm sure, than you had to take biology classes). Life's not fair, in that respect.
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Old 01-15-2009   #15
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Re: no religion in school

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Originally Said by Yugoloth View Post
My school required math classes. I have a personal objection as I do not believe in the axioms of arithmetic. I still had to take math classes (far more, i'm sure, than you had to take biology classes). Life's not fair, in that respect.
Well, I did have to take that Biology class, as well as the other required science classes and do the assignments well in order to graduate well, which I wanted to do and did, thank you, so...don't be so presumptuous.

And I don't disagree with everything science has to say, just mainly Evolution or moreover its presentation. And I did voice those disagreements in that class, which the teacher...tolerated.

But I do agree that life is not fair, in that respect. Oh well.
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Old 01-16-2009   #16
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Re: no religion in school

Good riddance.

I was a well-known atheist at my school. But I didn't think it was necessary to cause such a hullabaloo because I disagreed with the MAJORITY of people. During prayer time I simply walked out (as signs of both deference and defiance) of wherever I was. The first time this happened, an administrator said something to me about leaving during an assembly. I told him why I left and it was understood and left at that. Had he pushed the issue further, I would have metaphorically slapped him and my beloved school with a "YOU CAN'T DO THAT!"

I never said the Pledge of Allegiance and the "Under God" clause had little to do with that. My reasons were more politically-motivated. I am not going to pledge to do something if I don't want to do it. Anyone who says the Pledge doesn't realize what it is they are pledging to do.

I never complained about the FCA or anything being SPONSORED by teachers (if that makes a difference). Teachers are allowed to be religious as well.

I don't understand why atheists or the non-religious feel the need to try to control every small little example of separating Church and State. Don't they realize that makes the believers despise us more? Did anyone convert them to atheism?
No, critical thinking is something people have to learn on their own and no amount of banning this or outlawing that will change anything.
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Old 01-16-2009   #17
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Re: no religion in school

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Originally Said by Zanahoria_Picante View Post
And she also posed this question: Do you think that it is fair for the state to take out our right to praise at school?

So, uh, yeah.
No, that's not fair, but that's not what happened at her school.. nor has there been any media attention of anything similar happening at any school, therefore it's a nonissue.
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Old 01-16-2009   #18
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Re: no religion in school

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Originally Said by Sytrohs87 View Post
No, that's not fair, but that's not what happened at her school.. nor has there been any media attention of anything similar happening at any school, therefore it's a nonissue.
Well, I was not speaking exclusively about her school, but addressing that question in general, be it, in part, hypothetical. I see that it is not that religion has been "banned," per se (aside from the teachers not being able to discuss it, which seemed significant as they still publicly present non-theistic views as a standard), but just wanted to point out that the favoring goes both ways.

Obviously, I have no more patience for this debate; so, that's all I will say. Sorry for my snotty responses.
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Old 01-16-2009   #19
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Re: no religion in school

^I have no more patience for your mom's face!
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Old 01-16-2009   #20
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Re: no religion in school

I seriously doubt her teachers are disallowed from saying anything pertaining to religion, especially if what they say is entirely unbiased. She probably just exaggerated, due to her frustration. The high school I went to was the same way.. the teachers weren't allowed to advocate a religion, but were allowed to explain a certain religious doctrine.
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-The Mars Volta

"I consider the positions of kings and rulers as that of dust motes. I observe treasures of gold and gems as so many bricks and pebbles. I look upon the finest silken robes as tattered rags. I see myriad worlds of the universe as small seeds of fruit, and the greatest lake in India as a drop of oil on my foot. I perceive the teachings of the world to be the illusion of magicians. I discern the highest conception of emancipation as a golden brocade in a dream, and view the holy path of the illuminated ones as flowers appearing in one's eyes. I see meditation as a pillar of a mountain, Nirvana as a nightmare of daytime. I look upon the judgment of right and wrong as the serpentine dance of a dragon, and the rise and fall of beliefs as but traces left by the four seasons."

-Siddhartha Gautama
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