palestine

[neomp5]

what do you think about what's going on in palestine (or isreal, whatever you want to call it)? what do you think about these assassinations isreal is intending?

[JT11]

Originally Said by neomp5

what do you think about what's going on in palestine (or isreal, whatever you want to call it)? what do you think about these assassinations isreal is intending?

I think Israel has a right to defend itself, and taking out the founder of Hamas is part of that. Arafat should probably stay indoors for awhile.

[jyotishi]

using the same logic (I am not endorsing a stand), palestinias have the right to kill the leaders from Israel that order attacks against Palestine.., in this case, Sharon, who was the one who started the latest Intifada anyways..

violence won't lead to anywhere.., just the grave...,

[JT11]

Originally Said by jyotishi

using the same logic (I am not endorsing a stand), palestinias have the right to kill the leaders from Israel that order attacks against Palestine.., in this case, Sharon, who was the one who started the latest Intifada anyways..

violence won't lead to anywhere.., just the grave...,

I agree with you on the violence part, however, Yassin was the founder of a terrorist group that has killed hundreds of Israeli civilians, including women and children.

It sounds cold, but underneath all of that anger some of the arabs are feeling, there is also fear. This shows that Israel is capable and willing to take out the terrorist leaders. Unfortunately, until Arafat leaves, there will be no peace.

[neomp5]

Originally Said by jyotishi

using the same logic (I am not endorsing a stand), palestinias have the right to kill the leaders from Israel that order attacks against Palestine.., in this case, Sharon, who was the one who started the latest Intifada anyways..

violence won't lead to anywhere.., just the grave...,

exactly!

Originally Said by JT11

I agree with you on the violence part, however, Yassin was the founder of a terrorist group that has killed hundreds of Israeli civilians, including women and children.

and sharon is the leader of a terrorist group that has killed hundreds of palestinian civilians, including women and children.

i don't see a difference, except that one murdered the other

it all seems like sibling rivalry to me. "mom! ishmeal and issac are fighting again!". they are both vowing revenge on each other and doing the exact same things to each other over and over again, both thinking they are better than the other, and while it is isreal's fault the whole thing started, as they had no right to kick palestinians off their land, the palestinians have dragged themselves down to the same level and they are both equally evil. all that's happening is palestine is getting revenge against isreal for getting revenge against palestine for getting revenge against isreal for getting revenge against palestine for getting revenge against isreal for getting revenge against palestine for getting revenge against isreal and it's not going to stop until they just stop it. palestine needs to do what ghandi did. imagine what the world would think of isreal if they were bombing a nonviolent resistence?

there is a chapter in michael moores book "stupid white men" on this subject with some fantastic ideas as to how palestine could put an end to the conflict through peaceful resistence

[Blackass]

It's Israel's land, it was their's first. I don't like war, but Israel needs to defend itself from the Palestinians who enjoy blowing themselves (And others, for that matter) into smithereens.

[SpudNuts]

Isreal was "created" after the second world war by the allies as a "homeland" for the jews. Palestine is no more "their" land than Poland was Germany's land in 1939.


Palestines don't "enjoy" blowing themselves up. Its the only way they have of defending themselves. Palestine isn't funded by the US. Palestine has no army (at leats not on the same terms as Isreals). The palestines blowing themselves up are seeing it as the only way they can defend their homeland from the "invading" Isrealis.


You clearly have no clue about this situation.

[jyotishi]

SpudNuts is right...

most of palestines have been living in refugee camps for more than 50 years. For whatever reason, just imagine yourself, your family, your whole town being herded to a couple of square miles of desert, away from water sources, your land and homes and being kept there for 50 years....give anybody 50 years of misery and they will do anything against the oppresors.., if Israel would just leave Gaza and the West Bank Hamas would find it very hard to recruit suicide bombers

[neomp5]

"It's Israel's land, it was their's first."

before the romans kicked them out. if i get evicted from my home and you move in, do i have the right to break in, kill your children, and kick you out?

"I don't like war, but Israel needs to defend itself from the Palestinians who enjoy blowing themselves (And others, for that matter) into smithereens."

killing innocent people is not defense, and even if isreal's actions were justified, they should be trying to negotiate, trying to make palestine peaceful for everyone in it. this is just another case of the opressed becoming the opressor. it's happened again and again in history.

[verilon]

Though that may be true, neomp5 (and I'm not denying it, because I'm not up-to-date on this situation) - how else does a nation defend itself from an invading group?

[neomp5]

Originally Said by verilon

how else does a nation defend itself from an invading group?

you mean other than the suicide bombing tactics currently being used my the palestinian resistence? like i said, they should do what ghandi did, it worked there.

[verilon]

Unfortunately, nonviolence doesn't work these days. A militaristic invasion requires a militaristic response in this day and age. Mahatma Gandhi did teach a great lesson in civil disobedience, and although I agree with you it should be that way and there shouldn't be suicide bombers and such.. when someone declares war on you by invading your country, what else do you do but fight back? The Middle East is not a place for civil disobedience, what with current technology. India and Britain way back when is a different story; it was the end of the Imperial age.

[neomp5]

Originally Said by verilon

Unfortunately, nonviolence doesn't work these days. A militaristic invasion requires a militaristic response in this day and age. Mahatma Gandhi did teach a great lesson in civil disobedience, and although I agree with you it should be that way and there shouldn't be suicide bombers and such.. when someone declares war on you by invading your country, what else do you do but fight back? The Middle East is not a place for civil disobedience, what with current technology. India and Britain way back when is a different story; it was the end of the Imperial age.

those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.

[verilon]

Originally Said by neomp5

those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.

I'm not disagreeing with you. That's what the [whichever group is conducting the invasion] are doing by invading.

[JT11]

Originally Said by SpudNuts

Isreal was "created" after the second world war by the allies as a "homeland" for the jews. Palestine is no more "their" land than Poland was Germany's land in 1939.


Palestines don't "enjoy" blowing themselves up. Its the only way they have of defending themselves. Palestine isn't funded by the US. Palestine has no army (at leats not on the same terms as Isreals). The palestines blowing themselves up are seeing it as the only way they can defend their homeland from the "invading" Isrealis.


You clearly have no clue about this situation.

And on that same day they were attacked by 5 neighboring countries. They have been invaded 3 times since then, and have obtained land during these wars.

There was never a country called Palestine. The term "Palestine" was used on all the people who lived in that area including the jews.

The Israelis were given a plot of arrid desert which they have improved upon and built up into a thriving nation.

Do you ever wonder why Arafat is one of the richest people in the world and yet the "palestinians" are dirt poor?

What kind of people get 11 year olds to strap bombs on themselves? They teach their kids from birth to hate Americans and Jews.

[SpudNuts]

Originally Said by JT11

There was never a country called Palestine.

Don't talk pish. The state of Palestine was officially recognised by the League of Nations in 1919 as a seperate state.


Again in 1988, the King of Jordan decided he was going to cut all ties with what was known as "The West Bank". On 15 November 1988 the independent state of Palestine was proclaimed by the Palestine National Council meeting in Algiers. Generally put, however, there are four elements constituent of a state: territory, population, government and the capacity to enter into relations with other states.

Palestine has satisfied those criteria.

The Israelis were given a plot of arrid desert which they have improved upon and built up into a thriving nation.

Do you ever wonder why Arafat is one of the richest people in the world and yet the "palestinians" are dirt poor?

Isreal is given ENORMOUS amounts of cash by the US and UN and Palestine isn't. Isreal weren't exactly left to get on with it and create a nation for themselves.

And as for Arafat, no not really. He's no different to the leaders of every other developing country in that respect.

What kind of people get 11 year olds to strap bombs on themselves? They teach their kids from birth to hate Americans and Jews.

Terrorists obviously. But that is the only way the palestines can see to defend themselves. They haven't the money to build an army that would even come close to that of Isreals. The terrorist organistaions are taking advantage of this by using the Palestines as a weapon in their individual wars against the UN, US, etc

[jyotishi]

The Israelis were given a plot of arrid desert which they have improved upon and built up into a thriving nation.

No offence to the people of Israel, they have worked very hard, but they could not have done without the shitload of money (bank guarantees, loans and 'development aid') that the US has give them TO THIS DAY.., apart from all those apache helicopters and f-16s...

What kind of people get 11 year olds to strap bombs on themselves?

yes, boil them in oil, the preaks that get kids to do this (HAMAS), but do not generalize and include a whole race.., it is like saying that all white voters in the US are rednecks.., not pretty, right?

[neomp5]

you know what the smart thing would have been to do from the start? let the jews move into palestine. not give them their own country, just let them move into the existing one. just have one big palestine which could be the holy land for all abrahamics.

Originally Said by jyotishi

HAMAS

somebody should read quran to those guys

regarding murder:

anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. (5:32)

regarding jews:

[3:113-114]. They are not all the same; among the followers of the scripture, there are those who are righteous. They recite GOD's revelations through the night, and they fall prostrate.

They believe in GOD and the Last Day, they advocate righteousness and forbid evil, and they hasten to do righteous works. These are the righteous.

[JT11]

Originally Said by SpudNuts

Don't talk pish. The state of Palestine was officially recognised by the League of Nations in 1919 as a seperate state.

Again in 1988, the King of Jordan decided he was going to cut all ties with what was known as "The West Bank". On 15 November 1988 the independent state of Palestine was proclaimed by the Palestine National Council meeting in Algiers. Generally put, however, there are four elements constituent of a state: territory, population, government and the capacity to enter into relations with other states.

The Council of the League of Nations issued a Mandate for Palestine in 1922. The Mandate was in favor of the establishment for the Jewish people a homeland in Palestine. So as I said, the Jews are just as much Palestinian as any arab is.

The Arabs never developed this land. In twelve hundred years of association, they built only a single town, Ramleh, established as the local subprovincial capital in the eighth century. The researchers of nineteenth-century scholars, beginning with the archaeologist Edward Robinson in 1838, revealed that hundreds of place-names of villages and sites, seemingly Arab, were Arabic renderings or translations of ancient Hebrew names, biblical or Talmudic. The Arabs have never even had a name of their own for this country which they claim. "Filastin" is merely the Arab transliteration of "Palestine," the name the Romans gave the country when they determined to obliterate the "presence" of the Jewish people.

I'd have to question the element of government with the arabs in palestine.

Originally Said by jyotishi

No offence to the people of Israel, they have worked very hard, but they could not have done without the shitload of money (bank guarantees, loans and 'development aid') that the US has give them TO THIS DAY.., apart from all those apache helicopters and f-16s...




yes, boil them in oil, the preaks that get kids to do this (HAMAS), but do not generalize and include a whole race.., it is like saying that all white voters in the US are rednecks.., not pretty, right?

You're right, jyotishi, I'm not trying to generalize a whole race. It is my opinion that Arafat is the problem. I have nothing against the people.

Sure we have given them money, and sold them weapons, but they have become our ally.

The UN has given plenty of money to Arafat as well. He's living large, while his followers are taught that it's the fault of the US, or Israel that they are dirt poor.

[neomp5]

"The researchers of nineteenth-century scholars, beginning with the archaeologist Edward Robinson in 1838, revealed that hundreds of place-names of villages and sites, seemingly Arab, were Arabic renderings or translations of ancient Hebrew names, biblical or Talmudic. The Arabs have never even had a name of their own for this country which they claim. "Filastin" is merely the Arab transliteration of "Palestine," the name the Romans gave the country when they determined to obliterate the "presence" of the Jewish people."

what do you expect? palestine has always been a holy land for abrahamics, and arabic comes from the same language as hebrew, so of course they'd give the places arabic translations of the original names

"It is my opinion that Arafat is the problem."

that's what isreal says too, but arafat does not condone suicide bombings or anti-american/jewish hate, from what i've heard