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Old 01-16-2009   #21
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Re: no religion in school

During the Vietnam war teachers were SO SO SO fucked up about carrying their religion into classrooms. We and other military kids were actually relocated from one school in Charleston to another because teachers and students alike were bent on condemning us because our dads were baby killers and murderers.

Was worse in churches. Doesn't matter that it was wrong and decidedly unChristian. Hypocrites practicing their choice of religion would keep us out because our fathers were trapped fighting a war just so they could do that. At least that's what we were all told and we believed it because we didn't know anything else. It's not like we didn't have to change schools and churches often for other reasons as well. Some of us ended up with not much education at all because of all that bullshit.

Since those fairly traumatic experiences with teachers pushing religion in school and treating children of military men, whether or not they were stateside, like dirt because we were all misinformed, eventually I became convinced that very ignorance and hate might only be resolved if more of us were exposed to more religions and cultures - not fewer or less often.

Comparative religion could easily be taught without imposing on people. The teachers who want to push their religion over another are those who demonstrate intolerance and invite altercations. Such teachers set children up for the same and to perpetuate it.

The U.S. has put us all in a situation with so many cultures and religions that we really do need to find a way to respect each other. There is sufficient grief without adding more for lack of focus and consideration.

Inclusive, not exclusive. More, not less. Can't emphasize how much meaning that holds for me personally. Religion does not need to be divisive. It's people who make it that way.

As for teaching evolution, even religious universities do. So perhaps it wouldn't hurt schools to consider their approach.

Tesla and Einstein found a way to work from and with opposite extremes.
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Old 01-16-2009   #22
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Re: no religion in school

As far as presenting evolution in biology classrooms:

If you have a church, you can learn creationism there. Where else are you going to learn the Big Bang Theory or the Theory of Natural Selection (evolution, I continue to argue, is not a theory)? If you want different views to be presented in the classroom (i.e. those supported by non-scientific data or evidence), then which ones? Out of the hundreds of fairly common religions, which ones do you teach? Out of the thousands of other religions (like Nordic mythology), which ones do you teach?
You can't just pick one religion and call it balanced; that's unfair to all other religions as they all have equal scientific merit based on testability and current data-derived support for the hypothesis. If the Christian view of creation was taught, so too would the Greek view, the Cherokee view, the Nordic view, the Buddhist view, the Bushmen view, and on and on and on. If one is allowed as scientific, all must be allowed as scientific.
When they're done teaching all of those, there's no time left for any, ahem, science.
Sure, the teacher should acknowledge that current theories are not perfect and that we have so much more to learn, but these gaps should not be filled with God: they should be left open to interpretation and should lead to the wonder that will drive future generations to close them.

So, please, keep religion out of my science classroom. I hardly think scientists come and teach evolution in your church.
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Old 01-16-2009   #23
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Re: no religion in school

It's just the fact that it's mandatory, I think, that bugs some Christians. We, as atheists, are not required to attend church and have religious dogma preached to us, but Christian children are required to attend public school, where they're taught evolution.

I do agree though that adding a course on a single religion doesn't do much of anything to balance things out.. but this isn't really a case in which balancing is an issue. This is simply a classic case of science vs. religion.. and in this particular instance, the scientific argument has heaps of evidence in support of it, as opposed to religion's spare pickings. I don't know how to resolve this, though, other than just saying suck it up to Christian families. Until evidence is brought up to contradict evolution, we should be taught that which is observably correct.
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Old 01-16-2009   #24
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Re: no religion in school

I know.. which is why I said this:

Quote:
but this isn't really a case in which balancing is an issue. This is simply a classic case of science vs. religion.. and in this particular instance, the scientific argument has heaps of evidence in support of it, as opposed to religion's spare pickings.
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"I've defected."

-The Mars Volta

"I consider the positions of kings and rulers as that of dust motes. I observe treasures of gold and gems as so many bricks and pebbles. I look upon the finest silken robes as tattered rags. I see myriad worlds of the universe as small seeds of fruit, and the greatest lake in India as a drop of oil on my foot. I perceive the teachings of the world to be the illusion of magicians. I discern the highest conception of emancipation as a golden brocade in a dream, and view the holy path of the illuminated ones as flowers appearing in one's eyes. I see meditation as a pillar of a mountain, Nirvana as a nightmare of daytime. I look upon the judgment of right and wrong as the serpentine dance of a dragon, and the rise and fall of beliefs as but traces left by the four seasons."

-Siddhartha Gautama
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Old 01-16-2009   #25
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Re: no religion in school

how are you lied to in history class?
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Old 01-16-2009   #26
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Re: no religion in school

Don't worry about it... history haters think that just because history is subjective it is all lies.
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Old 01-16-2009   #27
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Re: no religion in school

you're quite touchy tonight, ms Jasmine.
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"I've defected."

-The Mars Volta

"I consider the positions of kings and rulers as that of dust motes. I observe treasures of gold and gems as so many bricks and pebbles. I look upon the finest silken robes as tattered rags. I see myriad worlds of the universe as small seeds of fruit, and the greatest lake in India as a drop of oil on my foot. I perceive the teachings of the world to be the illusion of magicians. I discern the highest conception of emancipation as a golden brocade in a dream, and view the holy path of the illuminated ones as flowers appearing in one's eyes. I see meditation as a pillar of a mountain, Nirvana as a nightmare of daytime. I look upon the judgment of right and wrong as the serpentine dance of a dragon, and the rise and fall of beliefs as but traces left by the four seasons."

-Siddhartha Gautama
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Old 01-16-2009   #28
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Re: no religion in school

yea, well...
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Old 01-16-2009   #29
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Re: no religion in school

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Old 01-16-2009   #30
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Re: no religion in school

Monday is Dr. King's birthday. I wonder if he liked orange soda.
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Old 01-16-2009   #31
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Re: no religion in school

Quote:
Originally Said by Jazzy J View Post
Monday is Dr. King's birthday. I wonder if he liked orange soda.
AlaBAMA! Represent!

Quote:
Originally Said by foxyphoenix View Post
(evolution, I continue to argue, is not a theory)?
It isn't? Do tell.
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Old 01-16-2009   #32
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Re: no religion in school

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Originally Said by Yugoloth View Post
AlaBAMA! Represent!
Absolutely! There's a show on right now on the History Channel, talking about the KKK and the Civil Rights Movement, with (obviously) lots of reference to Alabama.

Quote:
It isn't? Do tell.
Maybe because the thinks it's fact?
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Old 01-17-2009   #33
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Re: no religion in school

Quote:
Originally Said by Yugoloth View Post
It isn't? Do tell.

Evolution* is fact; it has been observed in controlled testing environments.
The theory aspect of it is only the process through which it functions; the leading theories are natural selection, genetic drift, punctuated equilibrium, and combinations of those three.


*
Quote:
Originally Said by Wikipedia (for accessibility)
In biology, evolution is change in the inherited traits of a population of organisms from one generation to the next. These changes are caused by a combination of three main processes: variation, reproduction, and selection. Genes that are passed on to an organism's offspring produce the inherited traits that are the basis of evolution. These traits vary within populations, with organisms showing heritable differences in their traits. When organisms reproduce, their offspring may have new or altered traits. These new traits arise in two main ways: either from mutations in genes, or from the transfer of genes between populations and between species. In species that reproduce sexually, new combinations of genes are also produced by genetic recombination, which can increase variation between organisms. Evolution occurs when these heritable differences become more common or rare in a population.
All of these facets of evolution have been observed to occur, making evolution a scientific fact (an idea which has overwhelming supportive evidence though objective and verifiable observations but is not held to be undeniably a truth [nothing in science is unquestionably a "truth"]).
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Old 01-17-2009   #34
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Re: no religion in school

Quote:
Originally Said by Jazzy J View Post
Monday is Dr. King's birthday. I wonder if he liked orange soda.
I doubt it, on an episode of animated Clerks that I just saw, it is apparently grape soda
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Old 01-17-2009   #35
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Re: no religion in school

Disgusting.
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Old 01-17-2009   #36
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Re: no religion in school

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Originally Said by GoddessDivine View Post
I doubt it, on an episode of animated Clerks that I just saw, it is apparently grape soda
Haha, that's a good one.

We, the jury, find in favor of...

BIG AMERICAN PARTY!

WHO'S DRIVING? OH MY GOD BEAR'S DRIVING! HOW CAN THAT BE?!

CAR FULL OF MIDGETS!

OH NO! TOM CRUISE!
YOU WANT THE TRUTH YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH SHOW ME THE MONEY!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QliI9ZRUIKg
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Old 01-17-2009   #37
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Re: no religion in school

God that episode was great...
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Old 01-17-2009   #38
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Re: no religion in school

Quote:
Originally Said by foxyphoenix View Post
Evolution* is fact; it has been observed in controlled testing environments.
The theory aspect of it is only the process through which it functions; the leading theories are natural selection, genetic drift, punctuated equilibrium, and combinations of those three.


*
All of these facets of evolution have been observed to occur, making evolution a scientific fact (an idea which has overwhelming supportive evidence though objective and verifiable observations but is not held to be undeniably a truth [nothing in science is unquestionably a "truth"]).
It's interesting to hear the biology point of view.

In physics, a theory is considered to be on a higher level of knowledge than a fact, since it can be used to make predictions about facts that haven't been observed yet.

How do biologists define the differences between the whole fact-law-theory thing?
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Old 01-17-2009   #39
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Re: no religion in school

Quote:
Originally Said by ROSEWITHTHORNS View Post
So yesterday the students at Jay High School found out that they will not have a baccalaureate service any more. Teachers are no longer allowed to talk about religion. The clubs CWO, FCA, and Youth Alive will have to be student-runned. And we are mad about it, but we are ready. Today at lunch about a hundred students gathered to pray. I am proud to say I was there.

Do you think that it is fair for the state to take out our right to praise at school?
Why would you pray? What is there to pray about in this situation?

If people insist on praying, I'd prefer they gathered to pray for famine, murder, rape, child abuse, war...not because the seperation of church and state laws are finally being enforced.

I'm sorry, this just seems a little ridiculous to me.

Also,
Quote:
Originally Said by Jazzy J View Post
Monday is Dr. King's birthday. I wonder if he liked orange soda.
He liked fruit punch like a real nigga.
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