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View Poll Results: T.S. Eliot?
Hottie. 4 57.14%
Nottie. 3 42.86%
Voters: 7. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-03-2009   #1
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T.S. Eliot: Hottie or Nottie?



The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock.
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Old 08-03-2009   #2
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Re: T.S. Eliot: Hottie or Nottie?

Come and go, talking of Michelangelo and of how Eliot was a American-hating anglophile!

Still, I voted hottie. He's got some swagger and swank, I'd say, much as I do.
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Old 08-03-2009   #3
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Re: T.S. Eliot: Hottie or Nottie?

Well, he only wrote one of my favourite poems ever, so I suppose he's alright :P
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Old 08-03-2009   #4
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Re: T.S. Eliot: Hottie or Nottie?

come one...The Waste Land!
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Old 08-05-2009   #5
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Re: T.S. Eliot: Hottie or Nottie?

Quote:
Originally Said by EmperorChaos View Post
Come and go, talking of Michelangelo and of how Eliot was a American-hating anglophile!

Still, I voted hottie. He's got some swagger and swank, I'd say, much as I do.
No, I wasn't, dear boy. But thank you for remarking on my swagger and swank. Yes, it was a thing I truly had great confidence about.

Quote:
Originally Said by Kali
Well, he only wrote one of my favourite poems ever, so I suppose he's alright :P
This one, you mean?

The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock


S’io credesse che mia risposta fosse
A persona che mai tornasse al mondo,
Questa fiamma staria senza piu scosse.
Ma perciocche giammai di questo fondo
Non torno vivo alcun, s’i’odo il vero,
Senza tema d’infamia ti rispondo.



LET us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherised upon a table;
Let us go, through certain half-deserted streets,
The muttering retreats
Of restless nights in one-night cheap hotels
And sawdust restaurants with oyster-shells:
Streets that follow like a tedious argument
Of insidious intent
To lead you to an overwhelming question …
Oh, do not ask, “What is it?”
Let us go and make our visit.

In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo.

The yellow fog that rubs its back upon the window-panes,
The yellow smoke that rubs its muzzle on the window-panes
Licked its tongue into the corners of the evening,
Lingered upon the pools that stand in drains,
Let fall upon its back the soot that falls from chimneys,
Slipped by the terrace, made a sudden leap,
And seeing that it was a soft October night,
Curled once about the house, and fell asleep.

And indeed there will be time
For the yellow smoke that slides along the street,
Rubbing its back upon the window-panes;
There will be time, there will be time
To prepare a face to meet the faces that you meet;
There will be time to murder and create,
And time for all the works and days of hands
That lift and drop a question on your plate;
Time for you and time for me,
And time yet for a hundred indecisions,
And for a hundred visions and revisions,
Before the taking of a toast and tea.

In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo.

And indeed there will be time
To wonder, “Do I dare?” and, “Do I dare?”
Time to turn back and descend the stair,
With a bald spot in the middle of my hair—
[They will say: “How his hair is growing thin!”]
My morning coat, my collar mounting firmly to the chin,
My necktie rich and modest, but asserted by a simple pin—
[They will say: “But how his arms and legs are thin!”]
Do I dare
Disturb the universe?
In a minute there is time
For decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse.

For I have known them all already, known them all:—
Have known the evenings, mornings, afternoons,
I have measured out my life with coffee spoons;
I know the voices dying with a dying fall
Beneath the music from a farther room.
So how should I presume?

And I have known the eyes already, known them all—
The eyes that fix you in a formulated phrase,
And when I am formulated, sprawling on a pin,
When I am pinned and wriggling on the wall,
Then how should I begin
To spit out all the butt-ends of my days and ways?
And how should I presume?

And I have known the arms already, known them all—
Arms that are braceleted and white and bare
[But in the lamplight, downed with light brown hair!]
It is perfume from a dress
That makes me so digress?
Arms that lie along a table, or wrap about a shawl.
And should I then presume?
And how should I begin?

Shall I say, I have gone at dusk through narrow streets
And watched the smoke that rises from the pipes
Of lonely men in shirt-sleeves, leaning out of windows?…

I should have been a pair of ragged claws
Scuttling across the floors of silent seas.

And the afternoon, the evening, sleeps so peacefully!
Smoothed by long fingers,
Asleep … tired … or it malingers,
Stretched on the floor, here beside you and me.
Should I, after tea and cakes and ices,
Have the strength to force the moment to its crisis?
But though I have wept and fasted, wept and prayed,
Though I have seen my head [grown slightly bald] brought in upon a platter,
I am no prophet—and here’s no great matter;
I have seen the moment of my greatness flicker,
And I have seen the eternal Footman hold my coat, and snicker,
And in short, I was afraid.

And would it have been worth it, after all,
After the cups, the marmalade, the tea,
Among the porcelain, among some talk of you and me,
Would it have been worth while,
To have bitten off the matter with a smile,
To have squeezed the universe into a ball
To roll it toward some overwhelming question,
To say: “I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all”—
If one, settling a pillow by her head,
Should say: “That is not what I meant at all.
That is not it, at all.”

And would it have been worth it, after all,
Would it have been worth while,
After the sunsets and the dooryards and the sprinkled streets,
After the novels, after the teacups, after the skirts that trail along the floor—
And this, and so much more?—
It is impossible to say just what I mean!
But as if a magic lantern threw the nerves in patterns on a screen: 105
Would it have been worth while
If one, settling a pillow or throwing off a shawl,
And turning toward the window, should say:
“That is not it at all,
That is not what I meant, at all.”


No! I am not Prince Hamlet, nor was meant to be;
Am an attendant lord, one that will do
To swell a progress, start a scene or two,
Advise the prince; no doubt, an easy tool,
Deferential, glad to be of use,
Politic, cautious, and meticulous;
Full of high sentence, but a bit obtuse;
At times, indeed, almost ridiculous—
Almost, at times, the Fool.

I grow old … I grow old …
I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.

Shall I part my hair behind? Do I dare to eat a peach?
I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each.

I do not think that they will sing to me.

I have seen them riding seaward on the waves
Combing the white hair of the waves blown back
When the wind blows the water white and black.

We have lingered in the chambers of the sea
By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown
Till human voices wake us, and we drown.


Quote:
Originally Said by GoddessDivine
come one...The Waste Land!
Dear girl! I was downright down in the dumps when I wrote that; though I must admit it turned out quite well. Glad you enjoy it.


(By all that oddness, I mean no offense to the real, late, great T.S. Eliot, of course. )
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Old 08-05-2009   #6
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Re: T.S. Eliot: Hottie or Nottie?

Don't start pretending you're T.S. Eliot now, or any old man...

I was watching The Fellowship of the Ring yesterday and thought of you when Gandalf called Frodo a "dear boy".

Funny that "dear boy" makes me think of a girl in Wisconsin and not the old men who say it to the young boys they fancy.

-=-=-

Back to Eliot, he was an anglophile, and probably hated America. He did, after all, become a British citizen despite being born in the good old U S of A.
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Old 08-05-2009   #7
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Re: T.S. Eliot: Hottie or Nottie?

He also went insane.. but I do love the Prufrock poem, just for that one line, "I have measured out my life with coffee spoons" The rest of it can piss off.
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Old 08-05-2009   #8
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Re: T.S. Eliot: Hottie or Nottie?

He did, however, know how to properly name things. Observe:


The Naming of Cats

The Naming of Cats is a difficult matter,
It isn't just one of your holiday games;
You may think at first I'm as mad as a hatter
When I tell you, a cat must have THREE DIFFERENT NAMES.
First of all, there's the name that the family use daily,
Such as Peter, Augustus, Alonzo or James,
Such as Victor or Jonathan, or George or Bill Bailey -
All of them sensible everyday names.
There are fancier names if you think they sound sweeter,
Some for the gentlemen, some for the dames:
Such as Plato, Admetus, Electra, Demeter -
But all of them sensible everyday names.
But I tell you, a cat needs a name that's particular,
A name that's peculiar, and more dignified,
Else how can he keep up his tail perpendicular,
Or spread out his whiskers, or cherish his pride?
Of names of this kind, I can give you a quorum,
Such as Munkustrap, Quaxo, or Coricopat,
Such as Bombalurina, or else Jellylorum -
Names that never belong to more than one cat.
But above and beyond there's still one name left over,
And that is the name that you never will guess;
The name that no human research can discover -
But THE CAT HIMSELF KNOWS, and will never confess.
When you notice a cat in profound meditation,
The reason, I tell you, is always the same:
His mind is engaged in a rapt contemplation
Of the thought, of the thought, of the thought of his name:
His ineffable effable
Effanineffable
Deep and inscrutable singular Name.

So you can call him "mad as a hatter" if you wish, but I think he was brilliant
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But I tell you, a cat needs a name that's particular,
A name that's peculiar, and more dignified,
Else how can he keep up his tail perpendicular,
Or spread out his whiskers, or cherish his pride?
~ T. S. Eliot
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Old 08-06-2009   #9
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Re: T.S. Eliot: Hottie or Nottie?

And that, of course, was the inspiration for one of the most successful musicals ever produced.
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Old 08-06-2009   #10
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Re: T.S. Eliot: Hottie or Nottie?

Quote:
Originally Said by EmperorChaos View Post
Don't start pretending you're T.S. Eliot now, or any old man...

I was watching The Fellowship of the Ring yesterday and thought of you when Gandalf called Frodo a "dear boy".

Funny that "dear boy" makes me think of a girl in Wisconsin and not the old men who say it to the young boys they fancy.

-=-=-

Back to Eliot, he was an anglophile, and probably hated America. He did, after all, become a British citizen despite being born in the good old U S of A.
(Hehe.)

I am so sorry to have burdened you so, dear, impressionable lad. Someday, perhaps! Someday and perhaps you will see back into the years of your ephemeral youth with wisdom only undone by very skilled and vindictive extraterrestrials, dear boy!

Quote:
Originally Said by Sytrohs87
He also went insane.. but I do love the Prufrock poem, just for that one line, "I have measured out my life with coffee spoons" The rest of it can piss off.
Do I dare to eat a peach?

Quote:
Originally Said by Kali
And that, of course, was the inspiration for one of the most successful musicals ever produced.
Wow, really? That's crazy; I never knew. It is quite a whimsical poem (and musical, for that matter).

"Tala" actually names all her pets that way--even though none of them were cats (as far as I know). O.O
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Old 08-06-2009   #11
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Re: T.S. Eliot: Hottie or Nottie?

Quote:
Originally Said by Kali View Post
And that, of course, was the inspiration for one of the most successful musicals ever produced.
The Aristocats?

Quote:
Originally Said by Zanahoria_Picante View Post
(Hehe.)

I am so sorry to have burdened you so, dear, impressionable lad. Someday, perhaps! Someday and perhaps you will see back into the years of your ephemeral youth with wisdom only undone by very skilled and vindictive extraterrestrials, dear boy!
Nah-uh, I would kick that alien's butt!
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Old 08-06-2009   #12
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Re: T.S. Eliot: Hottie or Nottie?

Quote:
Originally Said by EmperorChaos View Post
The Aristocats?



Nah-uh, I would kick that alien's butt!
Dear boy....
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Old 08-06-2009   #13
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Re: T.S. Eliot: Hottie or Nottie?

Oh, I wasn't doubting the man's genius.. just saying that he had to go into the depths of his mind that most of us don't even wish to know exist in order to fulfill that genius. I mean, the man laid the foundation for some of the greatest literature ever written. The wasteland motif, and the journey through the wasteland is pervasive throughout post-WWI literature - The Great Gatsby, The Sound and the Fury, Cane, Winesburg Ohio, Their Eyes Were Watching God, The Sun Also Rises - all take inspiration from Eliot.
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"I consider the positions of kings and rulers as that of dust motes. I observe treasures of gold and gems as so many bricks and pebbles. I look upon the finest silken robes as tattered rags. I see myriad worlds of the universe as small seeds of fruit, and the greatest lake in India as a drop of oil on my foot. I perceive the teachings of the world to be the illusion of magicians. I discern the highest conception of emancipation as a golden brocade in a dream, and view the holy path of the illuminated ones as flowers appearing in one's eyes. I see meditation as a pillar of a mountain, Nirvana as a nightmare of daytime. I look upon the judgment of right and wrong as the serpentine dance of a dragon, and the rise and fall of beliefs as but traces left by the four seasons."

-Siddhartha Gautama
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Old 08-06-2009   #14
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Re: T.S. Eliot: Hottie or Nottie?

What's even more interesting is the many many sources that Prufrock takes inspiration from. It's almost like a compilation poem. I once wrote a 14 (I think) page document deconstructing Prufrock and all its meanings and sources; not exactly laugh-a-minute, but it was so much fun to do.
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Old 08-06-2009   #15
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Re: T.S. Eliot: Hottie or Nottie?

He was indeed quite the genius. I quite like his style of writing and the meanings behind them. The inspirations for his poetry are also quite interesting, as you say Kali :)

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Wow, really? That's crazy; I never knew. It is quite a whimsical poem (and musical, for that matter).

"Tala" actually names all her pets that way--even though none of them were cats (as far as I know). O.O
I sat you and Thaddeus down to watch the movie, and you never gathered that? Yes, Cats is based off of that poem and a few others that he did. He actually turned down Disney because they wanted to do an "aristocrats" type movie out of his poems. But he said no, so instead Andrew Lloyd Webber went to Elliot's widow and asked her permission and she said yes.

No no, you see, there are different rules for naming dogs, ferrets, finches, hamsters, gerbils, fish, and grasshoppers. So the cat rules do not apply. Though I would say Mrs. Socrates fits the bill :D
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But I tell you, a cat needs a name that's particular,
A name that's peculiar, and more dignified,
Else how can he keep up his tail perpendicular,
Or spread out his whiskers, or cherish his pride?
~ T. S. Eliot
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Old 08-08-2009   #16
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Re: T.S. Eliot: Hottie or Nottie?

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Originally Said by Sytrohs87 View Post
Oh, I wasn't doubting the man's genius.. just saying that he had to go into the depths of his mind that most of us don't even wish to know exist in order to fulfill that genius. I mean, the man laid the foundation for some of the greatest literature ever written. The wasteland motif, and the journey through the wasteland is pervasive throughout post-WWI literature - The Great Gatsby, The Sound and the Fury, Cane, Winesburg Ohio, Their Eyes Were Watching God, The Sun Also Rises - all take inspiration from Eliot.
Hmmm. I guess I didn't really realize how pervasive, as you say, his work's influence is. Of course, I don't realize most things. That's cool, though; and curious that you just casually seem to know all that. :)

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Originally Said by Kali
What's even more interesting is the many many sources that Prufrock takes inspiration from. It's almost like a compilation poem. I once wrote a 14 (I think) page document deconstructing Prufrock and all its meanings and sources; not exactly laugh-a-minute, but it was so much fun to do.
Hehe, that's quite interesting, indeed. One of those "sources" being the Bible, unless I'm completely delusional (possible--very probable, at this point). I would actually likely enjoy reading that "deconstruction" of yours, since I love the poem, as well. :p

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Originally Said by Tala
I sat you and Thaddeus down to watch the movie, and you never gathered that? Yes, Cats is based off of that poem and a few others that he did. He actually turned down Disney because they wanted to do an "aristocrats" type movie out of his poems. But he said no, so instead Andrew Lloyd Webber went to Elliot's widow and asked her permission and she said yes.

No no, you see, there are different rules for naming dogs, ferrets, finches, hamsters, gerbils, fish, and grasshoppers. So the cat rules do not apply. Though I would say Mrs. Socrates fits the bill :D
Ha. Well, you know how "quick" we are about such things. I asked her if she realized that, and she didn't gather that at all, either. :D

So, what name have you chosen for your grasshopper? Or is it a private matter?

And yes, "she" does! *Watches her prancing around the room as we speak*
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Old 08-08-2009   #17
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Re: T.S. Eliot: Hottie or Nottie?

Quote:
Ha. Well, you know how "quick" we are about such things. I asked her if she realized that, and she didn't gather that at all, either. :D

So, what name have you chosen for your grasshopper? Or is it a private matter?

And yes, "she" does! *Watches her prancing around the room as we speak*
The Naming of Grasshoppers never made it as an Elliot poem; it was torn apart by the editor and was never seen again. Without proper rules and regulations to follow, I was lost in the slue of extraneous and quixotic names, unsure of exactly which path to follow! Therefore, he received the name of "Grasshopper" which I felt suited him quite nicely
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But I tell you, a cat needs a name that's particular,
A name that's peculiar, and more dignified,
Else how can he keep up his tail perpendicular,
Or spread out his whiskers, or cherish his pride?
~ T. S. Eliot
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Old 08-08-2009   #18
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Re: T.S. Eliot: Hottie or Nottie?

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Originally Said by Zanahoria_Picante View Post
Hmmm. I guess I didn't really realize how pervasive, as you say, his work's influence is. Of course, I don't realize most things. That's cool, though; and curious that you just casually seem to know all that. :)
I took an early twentieth century American literature class a few semesters back, and we began and ended the semester with Eliot's, The Wasteland, and read all the others I mentioned in between.

Honestly, the idea of human relations(and society as a whole, more generally) being tied in close parallel to the state of the land probably isn't original to Eliot, but he had the good fortune to write so eloquent and moving a poem encapsulating that motif just before the greats were starting their masterworks. Lucky bastard.
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