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Old 11-05-2008   #1
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Proposition 8

I hate to bump Obama from the front page, so I'll keep this short:

Proposition 8, which bans same-sex marriage in the state of California via an amendment to its constitution and is meant to be retroactive thereby invalidating the 18,000 marriages performed since May 18th when a ban was said to be unconstitutional, has passed 52%-48%. It was a difficult and close race, with an unprecedented amount of money from both sides going into advertising and rallies.
This is devastating news to the homosexual community, who used to regard California as a stronghold for their cause (equality, nothing more and nothing less). The Yes on 8 campaign asserted that from now on, "only marriage between a man and a woman will be valid or recognized in California, regardless of when or where performed." The issue is now heading back to the California Supreme Court, citing that its overwhelming nature should have been a constitutional revision, not an amendment, therefore requiring a 2/3 vote of the legislature and not just a petition to be placed on a ballot; the Democrats are favored in the legislature, so it would probably not pass. This case is likely to go to the US Supreme Court, and no one knows how they will lean regarding homosexual rights.
Florida banned gay marriage, too, and Arkansas banned gay couples from adopting children.
What are your thoughts regarding this historical case(s)?
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Old 11-05-2008   #2
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Re: Proposition 8

let 'em work let 'em live! Let the gays have their marriages and what not. If they have to pay taxes and follow the laws like other citizens of the US they deserve the same rights. I do not really know what people think they are accomplishing by banning gay marriage. It will not stop homosexual relationships by any means. Give them their damn freedom to marry who they want. (as long as they are both consensual adults of course)
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Old 11-05-2008   #3
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Re: Proposition 8

Another strike against individuals for insurance and other work benefits. It really is astounding how people in America of all places believe they should decide personal decisions for other people who do not affect their lives directly.

It really does just seem a way to pacify a largely bigoted group. On the other hand, it leaves a bone to throw for the next election.

Andy Stephenson, a former friend and avid voting rights activist, was with his partner Ted for 18 years until Andy died shortly after the last election. How many relationships last like that? What could anyone possibly have against two people benefiting from their commitment to each other the same as people in traditional heterosexual marriages? It's the same as stealing for the sake of being purely spiteful, imo.
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Old 11-06-2008   #4
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Re: Proposition 8

A sad note to an otherwise almost perfect election.
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Old 11-06-2008   #5
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Re: Proposition 8

What do people have against gay people getting married? It's so fucked up to impose your belief on system on someone else's life.
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Old 11-06-2008   #6
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Re: Proposition 8

Aside from or in addition to religious factors, businesses are trying to avoid providing benefits to non-heterosexual couples. Insurance companies have gone so far in the past - don't know how recent this might be now - as to say GLBT couples are higher risks for various reasons.

If a same sex couple commits for life as a heterosexual married couple might, the same sex couple will be denied work benefits, tax advantages and religious recognition that a heterosexual married couple can expect; not to mention the continued social struggles.
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Old 11-06-2008   #7
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Re: Proposition 8

That is realy sad..

to be honest: is there any difference betwen 'them' and 'us'? Don't think so.
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Old 11-06-2008   #8
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Re: Proposition 8

Quote:
Originally Said by my.dragons.lady View Post
Aside from or in addition to religious factors, businesses are trying to avoid providing benefits to non-heterosexual couples. Insurance companies have gone so far in the past - don't know how recent this might be now - as to say GLBT couples are higher risks for various reasons.

If a same sex couple commits for life as a heterosexual married couple might, the same sex couple will be denied work benefits, tax advantages and religious recognition that a heterosexual married couple can expect; not to mention the continued social struggles.
The money motivator makes me less angry than the religious one does. At least they have a real reason to be against gay marriage - being against it because of "religion" is just a nice mask to put over plain intolerance and bigotry.
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Old 11-06-2008   #9
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Re: Proposition 8

Gays marry all the time. The whole gay marriage spectacle is about gay people demanding that the government (and by extension, society) condone their behavior. I have always agreed with the sentiment that what any person does in terms of a personal relationship is none of my business. However, marriage is a completely different thing from that. Nations give benefits to married couples because they have an interest in them, namely their children which will grow up to be citizens as well. There's no chance of a gay couple producing offspring that way, which is why unions of that sort shouldn't receive the same benefits. Certain things, such as signifying your partner to be your next of kin, hospital visitation rights, etc should be extended to couples through a civil union-type institution. Homosexuals don't like that though, because it signifies that their union is different in the eyes of the law. They take that as discrimination, and I can even see why they would. I still disagree, though, because it's something completely different than a heterosexual marriage.

I sincerely doubt that most of the people who voted to ban it have this thought process, though.
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Old 11-06-2008   #10
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Re: Proposition 8

Quote:
Originally Said by Bleed Black View Post
Gays marry all the time. The whole gay marriage spectacle is about gay people demanding that the government (and by extension, society) condone their behavior. I have always agreed with the sentiment that what any person does in terms of a personal relationship is none of my business. However, marriage is a completely different thing from that. Nations give benefits to married couples because they have an interest in them, namely their children which will grow up to be citizens as well. There's no chance of a gay couple producing offspring that way, which is why unions of that sort shouldn't receive the same benefits. Certain things, such as signifying your partner to be your next of kin, hospital visitation rights, etc should be extended to couples through a civil union-type institution.
Uhhhh so by that logic, straight people who can't reproduce biologically shouldn't be allowed to be married?

And how's it different from a heterosexual marriage? It's the union of two people love each other and are devoted to each other. Who cares what is going on in their pants?
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Old 11-06-2008   #11
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Re: Proposition 8

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Originally Said by Christian View Post
That is realy sad..

to be honest: is there any difference betwen 'them' and 'us'? Don't think so.
Who's to say? And that is the point, I believe. No one can and therefore no one should.



Quote:
Originally Said by MudPuppet View Post
The money motivator makes me less angry than the religious one does. At least they have a real reason to be against gay marriage - being against it because of "religion" is just a nice mask to put over plain intolerance and bigotry.
They suck equally, imo, because they have the same end result. I foresee a rise in creative relationships and businesses are going to pay directly or indirectly. For instance, I know one lesbian couple who claims to be married to a gay couple because it's the only way the two significant others can receive medical coverage and other benefits. How that will play out over time, I haven't a clue. But people have really had it with being shut out.
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Old 11-06-2008   #12
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Re: Proposition 8

Quote:
Originally Said by MudPuppet View Post
Uhhhh so by that logic, straight people who can't reproduce biologically shouldn't be allowed to be married?
Not at all. There are always exceptions: some homosexual couples will use artificial insemination, some heterosexual couples will be infertile. Nobody could argue that the majority of heterosexual couples are not able to produce children.

Quote:
And how's it different from a heterosexual marriage? It's the union of two people love each other and are devoted to each other. Who cares what is going on in their pants?
It won't produce children. It's not about love or emotion, it's about the way the union is viewed by the state.
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Old 11-06-2008   #13
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Re: Proposition 8

Quote:
Originally Said by Bleed Black View Post
Gays marry all the time. The whole gay marriage spectacle is about gay people demanding that the government (and by extension, society) condone their behavior. I have always agreed with the sentiment that what any person does in terms of a personal relationship is none of my business. However, marriage is a completely different thing from that. Nations give benefits to married couples because they have an interest in them, namely their children which will grow up to be citizens as well. There's no chance of a gay couple producing offspring that way, which is why unions of that sort shouldn't receive the same benefits. Certain things, such as signifying your partner to be your next of kin, hospital visitation rights, etc should be extended to couples through a civil union-type institution. Homosexuals don't like that though, because it signifies that their union is different in the eyes of the law. They take that as discrimination, and I can even see why they would. I still disagree, though, because it's something completely different than a heterosexual marriage.

I sincerely doubt that most of the people who voted to ban it have this thought process, though.
If you decide to stay single for the rest of your life, do you think you should pay higher taxes, higher insurance premiums and be penalized because you will not be contributing to society by having a child contribute to society and help cover your costs to your community as you approach retirement age? Single retired men have it worse than anyone with benefits and taxes. In fact the only slight benefit single retired men have over single retired women is that men still make a little more for the same work.
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Old 11-06-2008   #14
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Re: Proposition 8

Quote:
Originally Said by Bleed Black View Post
Not at all. There are always exceptions: some homosexual couples will use artificial insemination, some heterosexual couples will be infertile. Nobody could argue that the majority of heterosexual couples are not able to produce children.

What about adoption? Raising American citizens even if they aren't your biological offspring? That's something homosexuals have been doing for a while now.


Anyways, in a perfect country I don't think marriage (either homosexual or heterosexual) would have any political benefits; however, the US gives benefits to heterosexual couples and there aren't any non-religious valid reasons to discriminate in this way.
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Old 11-06-2008   #15
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Re: Proposition 8

Quote:
Originally Said by my.dragons.lady View Post
If you decide to stay single for the rest of your life, do you think you should pay higher taxes, higher insurance premiums and be penalized because you will not be contributing to society by having a child contribute to society and help cover your costs to your community as you approach retirement age? Single retired men have it worse than anyone with benefits and taxes. In fact the only slight benefit single retired men have over single retired women is that men still make a little more for the same work.
You're not paying higher taxes. You're paying the normal amount of taxes. You can reduce this, as most do, by being married in a union that has the potential to profit the country, which is why those benefits are there in the first place.
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Old 11-06-2008   #16
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Re: Proposition 8

Quote:
Originally Said by foxyphoenix View Post
What about adoption? Raising American citizens even if they aren't your biological offspring? That's something homosexuals have been doing for a while now.
They didn't produce the child, though. Raising it doesn't matter, a child can still succeed even if it isn't raised well.
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Old 11-06-2008   #17
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Re: Proposition 8

Quote:
Originally Said by Bleed Black View Post
You're not paying higher taxes. You're paying the normal amount of taxes. You can reduce this, as most do, by being married in a union that has the potential to profit the country, which is why those benefits are there in the first place.
You must be assuming I know something you don't or vice versa. Would you mind clarifying what you mean by:
Quote:
You're not paying higher taxes. You're paying the normal amount of taxes.
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Old 11-06-2008   #18
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Re: Proposition 8

He means the taxes that a single person pays is standard, and getting married lowers the amount
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Old 11-06-2008   #19
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Re: Proposition 8

Quote:
Originally Said by my.dragons.lady View Post
You must be assuming I know something you don't or vice versa. Would you mind clarifying what you mean by:
Let's say X is the normal tax rate for one person. If that person remains single for their whole life, they will pay X amount in taxes. However, if that person marries another person, they get a break on their taxes and pay Y amount because the government has an interest in their union.

So one person in a normal, single situation pays X. If they marry, they get a break on their taxes and pay Y.
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Old 11-06-2008   #20
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Re: Proposition 8

Quote:
Originally Said by MudPuppet View Post
He means the taxes that a single person pays is standard, and getting married lowers the amount
If that's so, then "duh". That's just stating the obvious and evading the point of discussion altogether.

The point is everyone pays taxes and should be able to expect equal representation by people appropriating usage of that taxpayer money.

Businesses that provide insurance usually charge employees for insurance premiums. Why should non-heterosexual couples be forced to pay higher single premium rates because they're not allowed to pay lower family rates as a married couple?

The only way single or non-heterosexual people can benefit in that aspect is to negotiate higher salaries with employers who do not provide benefits.
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